Camo Space Marines

[Veteran Sergeant]

Sure, a giant dressed in blood red murdering single-handedly your whole platoon is sure to be a sight you'll remember your whole life...
But having that same platoon murdered by "something which appeared from nowhere in the middle of it" isn't less striking...

There are entirely different psychological aims at work there.

The problem with something that murders from nowhere is just that, it murders from nowhere. You don't know what to fear, just... something. Out of sight, out of mind, so to speak. Highly visible shock troops do just that, shock. They are a visceral, visible reminder of power and authority. There's plenty of value to both tactics, but saying that one is scarier than the other is just ignoring the valid uses of both tactics. While I fully believe that Space Marines, even ones like the Ultramarines, would use camo when the situation called for it. But also, they exist as a visible manifestation of the Emperor's will and the authority of the Imperium. In a lot of ways, they want to be seen. As players of a game with codified, "balanced" rules, we're not afraid of Space Marines. In reality, they are seven to seven and a half foot tall, half ton, heavily armed, nearly invulnerable, totally implacable and remorseless killing machines. If Space Marines have been deployed, and you're a rebel, it means your death is near, and somebody has gotten tired of negotiating with you.

The Space Marines certainly employ both tactics. But there's a very specific reason they'd be highly visible. After all, in the kind of battle they engage in, you're not trying to be obscured. Survivability comes from mobility, maneuver, combined arms, and decisive action. It's the reason very few military forces bother to field an urban camouflage pattern. You're never going to look like a building.

[Cthell]

There's also the psychological effect of going into battle painted bright red/blue/white/(insert chapter colour of choice); you are basically saying that it doesn't matter if the enemy see you, there's nothing they can do to stop you. It's a strong intimidation factor, particularly when a whole tactical squad is standing in formation, blasting away at their enemies, the shriek and explosions of bolt shells filling the air as return fire bounces harmlessly of their armour to no visible effect.

[Aedes]

This picture of the Space wolves comes to mind...

[gutsmaka]

I actaully think i read somwhere that space marines in camo would be heresy, not trusting the holy power armour and all that

[MyNameDidntFit]

It's the reason very few military forces bother to field an urban camouflage pattern. You're never going to look like a building.

I agree with everything you said except this. Camouflage is in no way about looking like a tree, a building, a sand dune or anything else*. Camouflage is about breaking up the recognisably unnatural outline of the human form.



*I'm talking about disruptive pattern camouflage, to clarify; things like ghillie suits are obviously another matter entirely.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

"Camouflage is the color of fear... I have no need to hide from my foes... I have no fear of death. My colors I wear openly, they proclaim louder than any words, I am proud to live - I am proud to die."

[NashTrickster]

The problem with something that murders from nowhere is just that, it murders from nowhere. You don't know what to fear, just... something. Out of sight, out of mind, so to speak. Highly visible shock troops do just that, shock. They are a visceral, visible reminder of power and authority.

Well, "it" murders from nowhere until it comes for you and you actually see it and realize it's a giant in power armour...

In both cases, after the first contact, survivors will still fear the coming of 8 feet tall bioengineered killing machines, even those who've never actually seen one with their own eyes yet...
But in the case where they heard through the grapevine that the threat can come from anywhere, without warning, it's that little extra bit more scary IMHO.

==========

I just feel like quoting H.P.Lovecraft and say "the strongest emotion of mankind is fear and the strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown"...

[ChaplainCharlie]

Once you have seen your enemy, what he is capable of, even if horrifying, you can start to cope with it. Once you know your enemy, even if you know him to be superior, you are better off than not knowing a thing...
Besides, isn't a Marine tactic to strike where the enemy is vulnerable, hammer a company into oblivion and then melt away before any reinforcements can arrive. Then constantly harass, pick weak targets and wipe them out so that the enemy is left flailing in the dark, unable to hit the target that is too elusive for him. And when he has spent his energy flailing impotently and is weary and exhausted, the coup de grace in the form of Drop Pods or a frontal Blitz.

The biggest thing standing in the way of camoflauged marines is money. More precisely, GWs need to make it. Marines are the best selling army out there. If Marines were clad in camo colors, they would be a lot harder to paint and not look half as intimidating. That would hurt sales as new players would be put off by the "need" to paint intricate camo patterns free-hand on models wherease before they could just spray them black, add some metal or white and call them Black Templars or other.

And just for PR value, consider a modern combat operative vs a soldier from WW1 or Napoleonic Wars. The modern man is bedecked in camo gear, IR reflective coatings and carries a bundle of pouches for a look that is less than awe-inspiring on first sight. Then we have the neatly clad gentleman with clean-shaven face, tall posture, big rifle with a big bayonet hanging on his waist and a pack on his back. Though we can find the latter laughable, he is definately more "intimidating" than the man next to him who just blends in and tries to be as small a target as possible.
And add to all this the fact that the 40k ethos is of Napolionic-style combat, with ranks of troops marching to war. The perks of camoflague, IR reflective paint and proper movement drills would be hard to represent on the battlefield and if represented accurately, would make for a dull squad-based game rather than the glorious slaughter we have now.

In the background, Marines should wear camo, but for painting reasons and sales stuff, they rather use single or bi-color schemes. Flat surfaces aren't the most friendly to paint camo on. At least one that looks neat. Guardsmen are a lot easier thanks to their form.

[Cultist of Sooty]

This picture of the Space wolves comes to mind...

I always loved that picture. You can tell they're being sneaky because one of them is wearing a big banner with "COVERT" written on it.

[Lord Squidar]

The thing about marines striking fear into their enemies is true, but only applicable to a few select few opponents, mostly average humans. I know that there are traitor guard units, but having hundreds of chapters using this strike fear tactic doesn't make sense...

Necrons don't care about your space marine heraldry, neither do they fear you in any way.
Tyranids won't care, they are mostly mindless or driven by the higher up bugs.
Eldar don't care, they watched you walk around dragging your knuckles and know you for what you really are (sorry eldar bias)
Dark Eldar think "thanks for making the job of hunting you down that much easier"
Orks same as above
Chaos the same, plus seeing the uniform of your hated foe might inspire greater effort
daemons dont care as well
Tau - "set target calibration to zero in on all blue stuff, thanks ultradudes!"
Imperial Guard - 'Oh Emperor its the ultramarines! Terra save us, arrrrrgh!"


So all in all not really effective and IG should be easy enough to handle if they are wearing camo anyways, its not that much of a penalty.

My personal idea is that the uniforms we see in the books are the no.1s, dress uniform worn on a day to day basis. If the marines have time in between combat zones, they would paint their armour, possibly leaving a shoulder pad unpainted.

[AndrewGPaul]

The thing about marines striking fear into their enemies is true, but only applicable to a few select few opponents, mostly average humans.

Yes it does, since the majority of the Imperium's foes are traitors and heretics.

Orks same as above

Orks are impressed, and can be intimidated, by a foe who stands up and faces them. Shock and Awe is actually a very good psychological weapon against Orks. Especially if said giants in bright armour have just wiped out the Warlord and his retinue.

The old painting guide in WD 129 allowed for campaign colours which overpainted all the squad and company markings. Ultramarines would still be, well, ultramarine, but the Tactical arrow, company colour and the Marine's name would all be obscured.

However, the main reason why Marines all have their own heraldry is because they're a cross between medival knights and religious military orders - it's a matter of pride and faith, and the last ten thousand years appear to have demonstrated that it works OK as things are.

[gutsmaka]

^^ change orks from "thanks for making the job of hunting you down that much easier" to "dat blu 'elmet will make me lukier! and dat red one faster! fanks 'umies!" and you'll be right

[Lupe]

Space Marines are, and have always been shock and awe troops first and foremost.

They were designed to be visible targets, for a great number of reasons, including intimidating enemies, inspiring allies or potential citizens of the Imperium, and, believe it or not - in the days of the Great Crusade, when human life was still valued by the Imperium - to offer the enemies an immediate threat, thus drawing small arms fire from far more vulnerable troops. This was a viable and practical approach that worked well for most of the Crusade (with small exceptions - Alpha Legion, Raven Guard, Night Lords more or less often took advantage of stealth and subterfuge) and it has remained standard operational procedure even by the end of the Heresy. Then things started to go south for the Imperium, and everything started to become mired down in traditions. Astartes tactics were just one of the many things that started to become hide-bound and subjective to the mindset of each sub-faction, up to the point where some chapters come up with completely outlandish tactical concepts that have almost nothing to do with what is sound and viable.

[maltesefalcon205]

I don't see the point in a Space Marine in Camo, unless they can suppress the heat giving off by there backpacks or there suit themselves.

Another point a Space Marine is around 8 foot tall, I don't see them hiding amongst tree's quite well unless like Gears of War there are chest high walls everywhere

[Drongol]

Remember, too, the fundamental strategy of Space Marines does not match up how they are played on the tabletop. They are meant to be rapid-insertion shock troops, deploying from the sky to end a threat instantly. The Guard then finish the battle with the enemy's leadership or communications disrupted.

Problem is, Marines became too popular for their own good and so now they have all sorts of vehicles that don't support this strategy, not to mentioned "specialized" Chapters that focus on such ridiculous things as siege warfare (because, as we all know, 1000 men can picket a city, let alone an entire planet) and Marines now operate as a sort of illogical standard-army-but-better force that straddles the line between superman and line grunt.

EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is that as the role of the Marine has become diluted, it becomes more and more understandable to see them in camoflauge.

[Polaria]

Well, there is also the little point that camo helps very little in most cases:

Necrons have 60 million year technological advantage on you so they can lock into your power armor no matter what it looks like.

Tyranids won't care, they home in by smell and then rip your camo ass apart.

Eldar have 60 million year technological advantage and besides they foresaw you coming.

Dark Eldar think camo is such a primitive idea that even their 60 million years of technological advantage doesn't explain it.

Orks don't use sights anyway, they spray and pray.

Chaos might be fooled if they weren't Space Marines and thus have all those fancy autosense stuff anyway.

Daemons really dont care, they smell your soul and home on it whether you are naked or in full ghillie.

Tau might be fooled if they didn't have better sensory equipment than you can even dream of.

Imperial Guard are fooled and die.

So all in all not really effective and any Space Marine should be able to kill IG no matter how his armour is painted.

[Cthell]

Dark Eldar think camo is such a primitive idea that even their 60 million years of technological advantage doesn't explain it.

The Dark Eldar method of camouflage is to wear dark armour and turn the sun off when they want a battle

[wolfspider]

The old tiger claws looked pretty good in their orange tiger stripe! :-)

[Mikial]

"Camouflage is the color of Cowardice"

Actually, there was some very old fluff back around the RT to 2nd ed time frame that said something to this effect when talking about Space Marines and the way they paint their armor bright, though I have to admit I can't remember the actual place it was written. Of course, it makes sense for scouts to use camo cloaks because they're . . . well . . . scouts.