Air Cav Tactica issue

[Dr Morbius]

Hi Folks,

I've been playing an Air Cav List for some time now and have a Good Rate of winning my games (about 80%).

So what is your issue then, you might ask.

My issue is that whenever I play Air Cav I want to swoop onto the battlefield get my troops out and have them doing heroic jungle movie actions. But this is nearly always prevented by the fact, that once i get them out, they get shot / assaulted to pieces the next turn. Therefore leaving these actions to suicide missions.

So instead I mostly shuffle my planes around 6" sideward / forward / backward to get the best firelanes and blast away at the enemy. This brings in the victory, but is rather boring after a while.

So do i miss something in my tactics? Is there a way to play them with fluffier tactics and still score? As said in the beginning, this is not about winning more...

Hope you can help me.

[Bunnahabhain]

Yes. The thing you're missing is the correct army list.

Use the IA 8 Elisian list.
That way, you aren't trying to pack everything into three squadrons, as you get valkyries are dedicated transports. You can swoop one in to be heroic, whilst supporting it with others, and not being gimped by the squadron rules in the process.

You can also take vultures as your HS, which are very fluffy indeed.

[Formerly Wu]

Not to mention demolition charges are available to basic infantry squads, which makes those heroic close deployments pack a hell of a punch.

Between the charges, the extra cost over codex units, and the access to cheap 'n cheerful SWS suicide squads, I much prefer infantry platoons to veterans in the IA8 list.

[Bartali]

I think your expecting to much from your basic guardsman. The only thing they do heroically is die
;-)

[Darth Bobo]

Hi Folks,

I've been playing an Air Cav List for some time now and have a Good Rate of winning my games (about 80%).

So what is your issue then, you might ask.

My issue is that whenever I play Air Cav I want to swoop onto the battlefield get my troops out and have them doing heroic jungle movie actions. But this is nearly always prevented by the fact, that once i get them out, they get shot / assaulted to pieces the next turn. Therefore leaving these actions to suicide missions.

So instead I mostly shuffle my planes around 6" sideward / forward / backward to get the best firelanes and blast away at the enemy. This brings in the victory, but is rather boring after a while.

So do i miss something in my tactics? Is there a way to play them with fluffier tactics and still score? As said in the beginning, this is not about winning more...

Hope you can help me.

Thanks for starting this tread!

I'm myself considering starting an air cav list using the Elysian Army list from IA8, both in order to avoid squadroning and to get Vultures in as heavy support.

My issue though is the same as yours appear to be, what use are my troops going to be other than dying? I imagine that one could hold back on landing the troops/veterans until turn 3 or 4 in order not to make them into sacrificial lambs but on the other hand that's not what the Image in my head tells me.

At 1850 pts I am considering 2 minimum size Stormtrooper squads (either 2 Melta or 2 Plasma/Plasma Pistol) that can deepstrike in order to remove the biggest threats to my flyers whose armor values aren't exactly impressively high (Vultures armor is identical to the Valkyries) and then approach with Valkyries with MRPs for Swarms, Vendettas for Heavy Armor and Vultures for medium armor (TL-Autocannons and 6 Hunter-Killer Missiles) but I too fear that this will just be a "hang back and shoot until last turn and then try to grab objectives" list.

What I understand from your experience is that this kind of list is indeed competitively viable (?) but doesn't play as you would dream of if you want to win once in a while. Correct?

Edit: Just forgot this, another option you can choose using the IA8 army list is to deepstrike Special Weapons Squads with 2 or 3 democharges, it may be suicide but what a glorious one at that and imagine your opponent reaction when you annonce that you will now proceed to throw 3 demo-charges

[Formerly Wu]

Edit: Just forgot this, another option you can choose using the IA8 army list is to deepstrike Special Weapons Squads with 2 or 3 democharges, it may be suicide but what a glorious one at that and imagine your opponent reaction when you annonce that you will now proceed to throw 3 demo-charges

You haven't lived until you've thrown four demolition charges within 12" of your entire army. There's a reason my army's battle cry is "HOT POTATO!!"

I've been experimenting with the TLAC/6HK Vulture too. It seems the best combo of "fluffy" and "useful" setup for the Vulture, other than a TL Punisher infantry death machine. I just wish IA8 didn't place such a ridiculous surcharge on that autocannon; 160 points for a poor man's Vendetta is a bit much to swallow even for a fluff nut.

[stereynolds]

I just wish IA8 didn't place such a ridiculous surcharge on that autocannon; 160 points for a poor man's Vendetta is a bit much to swallow even for a fluff nut.

But thats the cost it should be! Its the vendetta being cheap thats spoiled it for you :P

[ColShaw]

You haven't lived until you've thrown four demolition charges within 12" of your entire army. There's a reason my army's battle cry is "HOT POTATO!!"

Heh. My personal "best" is blowing up 14 of my own Guardsmen with a single errant Demo Charge (scattered into a tight-clustered combat where Mephiston was surrounded by a blob squad... even rolled a 1 to wound Meph... ).

[russellmoo]

I like the deep striking storm troopers idea.

Also, before investing in a bunch of forgeworld stuff (unless you like the look of the models, then go ahead anyway) you might want to wait 2 months or so to see what changes GW is going to make (hopefully adjusting the squadron rules) before putting too much into it.

[Formerly Wu]

But thats the cost it should be! Its the vendetta being cheap thats spoiled it for you :P

Oh no doubt! In my opinion a transport has no business moonlighting as a tank-hunter anyway. Doesn't mean I don't wince a little every time I choose the Vulture.

Also on the Elysian note: I find deepstriking most of your army into the enemy's backfield is an awfully good way to make sure they remain on their side of the board. In objective games, this can make quite the difference, as long as you don't mind seeing most of your men getting annihilated for eventual victory.

[stereynolds]

DS into the enies backfield really confuses them. I use it all the time with my Tau.

[Dr Morbius]

Thanks for your replies folks.

I indeed use the IA8 list with 2 Valkyries, 3 Vendettas and 2 Vultures. Which leaves me basically 4 Vet. Squads. As Bunna stated correctly that leaves usually 1 squad for a suicide mission (normally one of the valkyrie riders). The rest is shuffle around on the board edge, trying not to get charged and getting the firelanes.

It would me much more fun to at least swoop around the battlefield encircling the enemy with the planes. But you also have to keep clear of his close combat units or enemy melta. Sure, I can play them just like i want them to function and have a good laugh when things blow up in my face, but this usually don't lead to winning. Don't get me wrong. I don't mind to lose, and by the choice of my list I believe you will all agree that I'm not a WAAC, but I don't like to lose because of a silly action.

My above tactics bring me round about 80% of wins, so they are fine. They just get boring halfway during the game.

I have high hopes for the upcomming 6th edition and the inclusion of flyers. Maybe then we can fly in and out and around the enemy in a true Air Cav fashion

[Darth Bobo]

I indeed use the IA8 list with 2 Valkyries, 3 Vendettas and 2 Vultures. Which leaves me basically 4 Vet. Squads. As Bunna stated correctly that leaves usually 1 squad for a suicide mission (normally one of the valkyrie riders). The rest is shuffle around on the board edge, trying not to get charged and getting the firelanes.

It would me much more fun to at least swoop around the battlefield encircling the enemy with the planes. But you also have to keep clear of his close combat units or enemy melta. Sure, I can play them just like i want them to function and have a good laugh when things blow up in my face, but this usually don't lead to winning. Don't get me wrong. I don't mind to lose, and by the choice of my list I believe you will all agree that I'm not a WAAC, but I don't like to lose because of a silly action.

My above tactics bring me round about 80% of wins, so they are fine. They just get boring halfway during the game.

At what points limit are you playing? At 1850 points I believe that you should be able to fit 2 Valks, 2 Vendettas, 2 Vultures, CCS, 3 Veteran Squads and a minimal Platoon with 3 Demo SWS and then use the Platoon for suicide missions. The platoon would give some more target saturation in the enemy backfield if you deepstrike them and maybe give you a bit more freedom to swoop around with the remaining 6 Flyers and 9 demo charges deepstriked into the enemy deployment zone should be able to make a dent in enemy cc and melta units. Viable?

I have high hopes for the upcomming 6th edition and the inclusion of flyers. Maybe then we can fly in and out and around the enemy in a true Air Cav fashion

Even if the flyer rules are implemented I don't think we'll be able to fly in and out with skimmers, only with actual flyers (Avenger, Lightnings, Thunderbolts). I can't imagine that you'll be able to move your entire force off the table every turn?

[Kelanen]

I'd say there's a 90% good chance of 6th bringing in the apoc flyer rules, but very little chance of a substantial change to them - nothing that's going to change the way this army plays.

As with many units and armies, it's about vehicles, with the Troops just making the vehicles scoring...

[Formerly Wu]

I'd say there's a 90% good chance of 6th bringing in the apoc flyer rules, but very little chance of a substantial change to them - nothing that's going to change the way this army plays.

I doubt that whatever we get will end up looking like the current Apoc rules. It will probably resemble an upgraded version of the current Supersonic/Aerial Assault fast skimmer kludge: max move of 36", can fire all weapons if moving <= 12", and possibly some additional defense from shooting (whether cover save or BS reduction) and ground-based assault.

Which is, I think, a shame. The flyboy in me wants to see minimum movements, turn radii, strafing and bombing runs, "jink" maneuvers to simulate aerial dogfights, the ability to disengage to avoid AA fire, hover modes... well, we can hope anyway.

Morbius: How do you outfit your birds? You might be able to open up your infantry options a bit more depending on what you have.

[Kelanen]

The Apoc rules add bombing runs, and minimum movement, but the entire flying section only takes half a page - I see no reason whatsoever why they wouldn't be in. There are no turn radii etc for Apoc flyers, although I'd love those rules to come back for all vehicles (they won't though).

If they don't want to go beyond Supersonic/Aerial Assault then it will stay as is, just skimmers, with a commonly handed out package of high speed abilities.

Ironically, some units get worse when made flyers - Hell Blades for example.

[Formerly Wu]

The Apoc rules add bombing runs, and minimum movement, but the entire flying section only takes half a page - I see no reason whatsoever why they wouldn't be in.

My hunch is based more on the existence of Supersonic/Aerial Assault than on complexity of the ruleset. Neither of these rules apply to Apoc-style flyers, so their inclusion on recent flyer-type models suggests a more conservative approach. We'll see how they handle the new batch of flyers rumored to appear in a few weeks, as they will certainly have fully 6th-compatible rules.

Speaking of flyers- and since this seems to be on its way to becoming a full IA8 tactica thread- has anyone tried using the Thunderbolt or Lightning, either with Apoc flyer rules or "converted" to an AA/SS fast skimmer? I've found myself rather fond of the Thunderbolt. It's got a lot of punch, even if it's quite costly, and is handy to knock out pesky Necron flyers.

[Darth Bobo]

I think flyers would be great as support units for an air cav list, for example for doing bombing runs instead of deepstriking guardsmen but while we wait and see if this actually happens (and what FOC they will take up, I want an Imperial Avenger :P ) I have been trying to make a few 1850 pts lists:


Elysian CCS
Officer of the Fleet

Veteran Squad
3 Meltaguns
Demolitions Doctrine

Veteran Squad
3 Meltaguns
Demolitions Doctrine

Veteran Squad
3 Plasmaguns
Demolitions Doctrine

Elysian PCS

Elysian Infantry Squad
Commissar

Elysian Infantry Squad

Elysian SWS
3 Demolition Charges

Elysian SWS
3 Demolition Charges

Elysian SWS
3 Demolition Charges

Valkyrie Dedicated Transport
Multiple Rocket Pods


Valkyrie Dedicated Transport
Multiple Rocket Pods

Vendetta

Vendetta

Vulture Gunship
Twin-Linked Autocannons
6 Hunter Killer Missiles

Vulture Gunship
Twin-Linked Autocannons
6 Hunter Killer Missiles


OR


Elysian CCS
Plasma Pistol
Plasma Gun

Storm Trooper Squad
2 Melta guns

Storm Trooper Squad
2 Melta guns

Veteran Squad
3 Meltaguns
Demolitions Doctrine

Veteran Squad
3 Meltaguns
Demolitions Doctrine

Veteran Squad
3 Plasmaguns
Demolitions Doctrine

Veteran Squad
3 Plasmaguns
Demolitions Doctrine

Valkyrie Dedicated Transport
Multiple Rocket Pods

Valkyrie Dedicated Transport
Multiple Rocket Pods

Vendetta

Vendetta

Vendetta

Vulture Gunship
Twin-Linked Autocannons
6 Hunter Killer Missiles

Vulture Gunship
Twin-Linked Autocannons
6 Hunter Killer Missiles


Both lists are built around having a deepstriking element neutralize the largest threats to the flyers (of which the first list have an extra). While the first list deploys deepstriking Stormtroopers to deal with these threats the second deploys a minimal platoon with maxed number of Special Weapons Squads with Demo-charges. It seems to me that having the deepstriking element is the right way to go but either way they are fairly expensive suicide units deployed to die. The SWS are especially bad since they deepstrike, throw 3 demolition charges (100 pts deepstriking bomb folks!) and is then pretty much dead or useless for the rest of the game (OK, they can hold objectives, but they are free killpoints and their offensive capabilities are limited to 3 flashlights once the Demo Charges are away). The Minimal Platoon on the other hand could be deployed on a home objective to hold this while the SWS went off to die, if this strategy was chosen I'd think the Infantry Squads and PCS could use a little wrgear so one should probably take the demolitions doctrine of the Plasma Vets in order to spread a little love.

A third possibility which I haven't looked into yet is to deploy deepstriking sentinels with Multi-Meltas alongside the Stormtroopers? Are two squads of stormtroopers too few to really matter? (Regardless the fourth Veteran Squad would have to go in order to make place).

All of the above goes against having an army fully mounted in flyers but I think it would be more fun than hanging back and shooting for 4 turns and then try to grab objectives in turn 5.

So discussion?

[Formerly Wu]

The SWS are especially bad since they deepstrike, throw 3 demolition charges (100 pts deepstriking bomb folks!) and is then pretty much dead or useless for the rest of the game (OK, they can hold objectives, but they are free killpoints and their offensive capabilities are limited to 3 flashlights once the Demo Charges are away).

My preferred suicide squad loadout is one demo charge and two flamers. It's a lot cheaper, still does plenty of wounds, and three charges all on the same target is usually overkill. Then, if they live past their first turn, they can still fire their flamers. Also, point of order: your demo squad troops don't lose their lasguns when you take the demo charge, and can choose to fire their lasguns instead if they want to.

A third possibility which I haven't looked into yet is to deploy deepstriking sentinels with Multi-Meltas alongside the Stormtroopers?

I love MM drop sentinels for their ballin' model and because they're cheap distraction units who can draw fire or tie up light infantry. I rarely expect much of their one-shot BS3. I wouldn't rely on them for backfield fire support.

Another thing to consider is that poor reserve rolls could put a big dent in your plans. If your planes arrive before your infantry, or your infantry arrives piecemeal, things could go pear-shaped in a hurry unless you have a fallback strategy. Not that that's a list-killer, just that when you start the game, look at the board and ask yourself "if I have to, where will I drop these guys where they'll do the most good?"

(Incidentally, this another reason why I'm so fond of platoons- much more reliable reserves)

[Darth Bobo]

My preferred suicide squad loadout is one demo charge and two flamers. It's a lot cheaper, still does plenty of wounds, and three charges all on the same target is usually overkill. Then, if they live past their first turn, they can still fire their flamers. Also, point of order: your demo squad troops don't lose their lasguns when you take the demo charge, and can choose to fire their lasguns instead if they want to.

I'm pretty sure that in the IA8 list the SWS exchange their lasguns for a special weapons, but I see your point regardless, by giving the SWS a mix of flamers and Demo charges they could indeed be useful provided they survive the round they arrive. Also it will make the SWS units cheaper and "easier" to loose.

SWS 3 Demo = 100
SWS 2 Demo, 1 Flamer = 85
SWS 1 Demo, 2 Flamers = 70

That's potentially a lot of points to save to use on other goodies, larger platoon maybe?

I love MM drop sentinels for their ballin' model and because they're cheap distraction units who can draw fire or tie up light infantry. I rarely expect much of their one-shot BS3. I wouldn't rely on them for backfield fire support.

Another thing to consider is that poor reserve rolls could put a big dent in your plans. If your planes arrive before your infantry, or your infantry arrives piecemeal, things could go pear-shaped in a hurry unless you have a fallback strategy. Not that that's a list-killer, just that when you start the game, look at the board and ask yourself "if I have to, where will I drop these guys where they'll do the most good?"

(Incidentally, this another reason why I'm so fond of platoons- much more reliable reserves)

Yeah, the platoons are great for arriving at the same time