Characters on Demigryphs, why not?

[2ndCompanyVeterans]

Probably because it would devalue other units too much the grand master would be unmovable. Between his rules and what the griffons offer. I am guessing the mournfangs are the same you would just have a fully mounted ogre army to deliver the characters quickly. Not realyl much of an epic game just would have loads of cookie cutters.

[hazmiter]

What about hero level captains????
Would that unbalance it???

[Urgat]

Well, a couple mournfang units with a bruiser in each... I wouldn't like to face that much, to be honest I suppose people wouldn't like a couple warbosses on arachnaroks either >>

[hazmiter]

Hmm good point, kinda like masters on manticores I guess.....

[Yowzo]

At almost 300pts a pop + warboss you wouldn't be seeing that many anyway.

[2ndCompanyVeterans]

There is a significant difference in the context of use. The Manticore has it's vulnerabilities it moves on it's own, and the usual no armour saves etc. I don't dispute the cool factor, however 2-3 units of Demigriffs with Grand master would not be a funny prospect backed up by cannons and all the other empire treats. Maybe they wanted to see how they go on their own and possibly in the next edition give them the option. If I recall Karl Franz does not even get the option.

[hazmiter]

No Karl Franz gets his pet gryphon, no demi.

[AngelofSorrow]

Theodore Bruckner from the tamurkhan book. Great model, and great rules. Only downside is he can't join a unit of demigryphs.


Ready for eternal war!

[2ndCompanyVeterans]

I actually gave this some thought and I wouldn't mind an elector count on Demi Griff and I think that quite fluffy/fun without going to crazy and it is still a legitimate step above the unit champion without going crazy powerful. Cost wise 45 points I think is appropriate.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Nah, I think it's more to do with the fact that they didn't have the resources and/or will (and/or profit projections) to produce a General on Demigryph finecast kit for the Empire release schedule, and we're currently in an era where they don't like having rules for models that don't have an official, straight-out-of-the-box kit.

This. It seems to be that they are cutting down on options without models.

That didn't stop GW from having one of the hottest new units from the O&G book (mangler squig) without an official model for several months.

...and then releasing an overcosted finecast model when they could have had a properly costed plastic model sold like hot cakes.

Right, but O&G were before the big "no options in the book without models" clampdown. Around the start of 8th edition and the release of O&G there was the Chapterhouse kerfuffle, but clearly O&G and Tomb Kings were in production by that point anyway. The next Army Book to be started after the onset of the Chapterhouse lawsuit was Ogres and suddenly we have a book with no options without models (excluding a BSB). The only mount available was the Stonehorn and there were the components for a hunter included in the kit. I think the design team got orders to clamp down and not include any options for units without rules because the lawyers realised that actually, they couldn't defend their IP against people making models of their units if they didn't have a model in existence. I think GW got a bit complacent about what they could defend as their IP and as the biggest fish in the wargaming sea, rather had the rug pulled out from under them. Then again, I would have said it's going a bit far not providing character mounts if there wasn't a model of a tyrant on a mournfang (after all, the mournfang model existed) so that may not be the only reason but it seems very likely the chapterhouse court case was the reason for the lack of units without models after tomb kings.

Bit of a shame there's no option for a mournfang mounted character. Then again, a heavily armoured ogre character with the crown of command in a unit of MF probably would have made people sad. Note however there are a lot more character options in the plastic kits. The wizardmobiles include plastic wizards to mount them, the griffon has several character options, the terrorgheist, etc. So it isn't all bad.

It's not really obvious to me, no :/ The role of a character on a monster and a character in a unit or completely different. And, as far as I've understood from Warseer, they do have managed to make the imperial griffon an attractive enough choice this edition. A guy on a demigryph doesn't have half the oomph or versatility of a griffon rider, since, as you pointed out, it's not his purpose. And I don't see that they've nerfed anything that was in competition with the new big kits in the 8th books. I wish people would stop with the "GW's evil plot" deliriums...

Griffons are still an awful choice. They just can't make ridden monsters good without either re-writing the ridden monster rules or the cannon rules or both. A demigryph character on the other hand can get a look out sir roll in a big enough unit of demigryphs and add quite a lot to the unit in the form of leadership and magic items.

Soo, what would be a realistic price for a grandmaster on a demigryph then?
Grandmaster price + demigryph knight price - price warhorse for lord - IC knight price = ?
Don't have the book here, but that should be a base/start price. Can anyone tell me how much that is, don't have the book with me at work.

I would keep it simple. A warhorse for an empire character costs more than a whole knight. Just add the demigryph cost to the character cost. After all, it doesn't hurt to pay a slight premium since it isn't in the book. It might be reasonable to deduct the cost of a warhorse from the grandmaster, though.

[TheDungen]

It's not really obvious to me, no :/ The role of a character on a monster and a character in a unit or completely different. And, as far as I've understood from Warseer, they do have managed to make the imperial griffon an attractive enough choice this edition. A guy on a demigryph doesn't have half the oomph or versatility of a griffon rider, since, as you pointed out, it's not his purpose. And I don't see that they've nerfed anything that was in competition with the new big kits in the 8th books. I wish people would stop with the "GW's evil plot" deliriums...

Cause i was definitely completely serious =P

[DaemonReign]

This. It seems to be that they are cutting down on options without models. *etcetera*

Dude..
After reading this post of yours, which to the best of my rudimentary skills is probably pretty much on point, I must say I've gone from a slight dislike of these parasite manufacturers to a flat out simplistic psychotic hatred.

I hope everyone sees clearly now how Chapterhouse&Co are actually a detriment to our hobby, how we're biting the hand that feeds us buy buying their stuff, how nothing good will come from it.

That's just great. The prospect of an entire edition of nothing to convert is truly making me sad. Damn these parasites.. damn them all..

Not being able to mount chars on Mournfangs and DemiGryphs just plain sucks. And hey I guess that means once the new DoC book comes around my home-built chariots will be collecting dust for good..

This is depressing. It really is. I sympathize with GW doing what they have to do, and it's our fault as a community for not being loyal to them.

[Malorian]

Functionally it's to remove the ability to deathstar. That's the reason.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Dude..
After reading this post of yours, which to the best of my rudimentary skills is probably pretty much on point, I must say I've gone from a slight dislike of these parasite manufacturers to a flat out simplistic psychotic hatred.

I hope everyone sees clearly now how Chapterhouse&Co are actually a detriment to our hobby, how we're biting the hand that feeds us buy buying their stuff, how nothing good will come from it.

That's just great. The prospect of an entire edition of nothing to convert is truly making me sad. Damn these parasites.. damn them all..

Not being able to mount chars on Mournfangs and DemiGryphs just plain sucks. And hey I guess that means once the new DoC book comes around my home-built chariots will be collecting dust for good..

This is depressing. It really is. I sympathize with GW doing what they have to do, and it's our fault as a community for not being loyal to them.

To a degree... but if GW feels it doesn't have competitors then it has demonstrated that it will simply keep jacking up prices and producing crappy rules. I would also have said that crappy rules in 7th edition and inflating prices really brought competitors like FOW or Warmachine more interest, so I suspect that lead in a way to a better 8th edition.

GW doesn't deserve your sympathy because their bullying approach to smaller companies hasn't exactly been something to be proud of. GW shouldn't feel they can stamp down on any company that produces anything vaguely competing. A situation where GW produce rules for units but expect to be able to prevent other companies from filling that demand - but has no interest in filling that demand for years on end - is not good for the players either.

Functionally it's to remove the ability to deathstar. That's the reason.

Perhaps - but on the other hand, Ogres and Empire are practically begged to deathstar their other units. Two characters is about the functional minimum for Empire units and even one character in an ogre unit is practically a deathstar let alone more than one.

[Urgat]

Functionally it's to remove the ability to deathstar. That's the reason.

Deathstar with demigriphs? :/

[DaemonReign]

Nothing stopping you from fielding 50 Demigryphs or Mournfangs in a single unit and go rolling down the coast, is it?
Not being able to put chars in those units is just boring as far as I'm concerned and I'll definately let the Empire player in our group make up a houserule to cover this blemish should he desire to do so.

Oh and I agree that GW arn't flawless. Monopoly has its downsides. I also agree that very much has improved with 8th over 7th Ed. But GW having to be vigilant on IP-issues - hampering the creation of new Army Books in terms of variety and obvious choices that are now lacking (such as these mount-options) - is still making me a sad camper.

[Lord Inquisitor]

I agree (for once!)

[DaemonReign]

I agree (for once!)

Well we gotta have some of that too.. However else would we ever cope?

[Malorian]

Nothing stopping you from fielding 50 Demigryphs or Mournfangs in a single unit and go rolling down the coast, is it?
Not being able to put chars in those units is just boring as far as I'm concerned and I'll definately let the Empire player in our group make up a houserule to cover this blemish should he desire to do so.

What is better:

-50 mournfang
or
-30 mornfang with warriors priest, bsb, and life mage all mounted on their own demigryph?

Also which on can be fit into the smaller point size?

[Urgat]

Nothing stopping you from fielding 50 Demigryphs or Mournfangs in a single unit and go rolling down the coast, is it?

The fact that most of the punch comes from the mount, and that they don't get to attack from the second rank? Which makes them among the most overcosted +1 to CR per rank ever? Honestly, I wouldn't mind facing those, there would basically be nothing else in the army, for a ridiculously weak unit considering its cost. How many points is 50 demigryphs anyway? Because that's idiotic, I can answer to you that nothing stops me from fielding 50 big bosses on gigantic spiders in one unit, and they'll own your 50 demigryphs, d'huhr!!!