Most difficult / unbalanced lists to beat with a balanced list (POLL)

[Montegue]

Bloodletter Hordes are T3 with 1 attack. Most armies can ruin them in CC. L

Sorry. That's a WS5 S5 attack and they walk around with a 5+ ward save. Also, init 4. Great Weapon strength on a high init with a very high weapon skill and a 5+ save against anything that touches them. Bloodletter Hordes are absolutely devastating.

[Duke Ramulots]

CC is the last place id want to take out bloodletters, throwing 50+ arrows at them usually does the trick with their T-3 and 5+ save though.

[HalfBlood]

The idea I'd quantity rather then quality. It is easiest to shoot bloodletters like this guy said but in CC bloodletters get wrecked by huge tarpits like khorne maruduers,tomb guard, skaven slaves, do I have to explain more?

[Askari]

The idea I'd quantity rather then quality. It is easiest to shoot bloodletters like this guy said but in CC bloodletters get wrecked by huge tarpits like khorne maruduers,tomb guard, skaven slaves, do I have to explain more?

Tomb Guard wreck Bloodletters? Really?!

[HalfBlood]

Test it out man, it surprised me

[Duke Ramulots]

I dont need to test that one out, I regularly play against both VC and DoC and have seen so many of their games against eachother that not ever having witnessed TG beat the Bloodletters even once means I doubt they have much of a chance at doing it. Now Dryads rip them apart especially when buffed with some lifeblood and or flesh to stone.

[HalfBlood]

Strange I have seen Bloodletters get beaten by Tomb Guard almost everycombat...

[Graxy]

If the tomb guard have a king or prince in there (and he isn't targeted for some strange reason), tomb guard may actually give them a run for their money. Without however, I'd imagine that they won't last too long. It's time for some (drumroll please) MATHHAMMER!

(All these are done assuming that neither unit has their beneficial characters)

Bloodletters 10X3 vs tomb guard 10X3 (with halberds)
Bloodletter's 31 attacks hit on 3's (20.66 hits) and wound on 3's, ignoring armour (13.77 wounds) rounded up to 14 killed
Tomb guard's now 17 attacks hit on 4's (8.5 hits) and wound on 2's (7.08 wounds) with a 5+ ward (4.72 failed) rounded up to 5 killed

Bloodletters 10X3 vs tomb guard 6X5 (with halberds)
Bloodletter's 19 attacks hit on 3's (12.66 hits) and wound on 3's ignoring armour (8.44 wounds) rounded down to 8 killed
Tomb guard's 13 attacks hit on 4's (6.5 hits) and wound on 2's (5.416 wounds) with a 5+ ward (3.61 failed) rounded up to 4 killed

Bloodletters 10X3 vs tomb guard 6X5 (with shields) (I'm not going to do tomb guard with shields in horde since it is a bit too uncommon)
Bloodletter's 19 attacks hit on 3's (12.66 hits) and wound on 3's ignoring armour (8.44 wounds) with a 6+ parry (7.037 failed) rounded down to 7 killed
Tomb guard's 13 attacks hit on 4's (6.5 hits) and wound on 3's (4.33 wounds) with a 5+ ward (2.88 failed) rounded up to 3 killed

I've probably done everything wrong here, since I'm pretty tired and have this god awful headache, but there's some maths.
In either case, neither unit is really doing enough to really phase the other unit (other than in the horde vs horde where bloodletters dominate), but on averages it seems like the bloodletters will eventually end the tomb guard. The tomb guard can't exactly wreck them by themselves, only really stall them out for aa few turns. To be fair, the tomb guard might get a couple of few extra kills from instability due to the tomb guard's static combat res, but individually, I'd rather not put my very expensive unit of tomb guard in front of a bloodletter horde by themseves.

[HalfBlood]

Add in the special characters(prince and Necrotek), HoK for the bloodletter unit. My money would be on the TG

[Askari]

I come to a similar scenario, horde to horde Bloodletters just crush Tomb Guard, killing almost twice as many and then add in Unstable on top. If you want to add in a Tomb Prince/King for the WS bonus then you have to add in a Herald for the 'letters too, then they both just kill more, the difference is still somewhat the same. A Necrotect on top means yet more a points advantage for the Tomb Guard (they're more expensive with Halberds already), and he'll be easily killed off before he strikes anyway.

[HalfBlood]

How does that get really nasty? Not many players play TK in my area, however I did play 1 game where my letters (29) + a herald with bsb Great Icon of Despair (its my all-comers build). The horde ran into a TG unit of about 30 + Necrotek and Prince. The lettter unit did not get wiped, however I did lose combat. The units are about even. If I remember correct Necrotek gives the unit 6+ regen? The prince gives them Hatred and they can use his WS? However I am not exactly sure since I rarely played against them.

[Graxy]

Askari's point is EXACTLY why I did all of the calculations without characters. For points, even adding the necrotect on to the halberds unit would be enough for a herald (off of memory, I don't have the book of either to hand), and adding a king would condone skulltaker on top of that herald, and with a herald and skulltaker, that king and necrotect are not living for very many rounds of combat ar all. Basically, after the first round or so, the letters will be up points from killing blowing the TK characters, and even if the TG do killing blow the herald and skulltaker, the letters will walk through the remenants of the unit.

[HalfBlood]

You assume so much. Its not like 4 bloodletters get into CC with a character and the character gets immediately KBed... I have played many games where my KB did not go off... Most likes that run BL hordes place a bsb with an icon on their HoK. This should be enough to count for both the necrotek and the Tomb Prince.

[Graxy]

You assume so much. Its not like 4 bloodletters get into CC with a character and the character gets immediately KBed... I have played many games where my KB did not go off... Most likes that run BL hordes place a bsb with an icon on their HoK. This should be enough to count for both the necrotek and the Tomb Prince.

And you're assuming that in a situation where either unit has been set up to charge, the daemon player isn't moving any champions, heralds, skulltaler (yes, skulltaker, no bsb since at the point where we are putting specific builds into the theory, we might as well say that you've popped a few models off with shooting and magic or that one player has lined up a flank charge) so that they would be in base to base with the king. Assuming it's 2 heralds (for some reason) other than skultaker and a herald (which were taken to fill points that you've added to the tomb guard) thats still 6 attacks with hatred from them and 4 from the unit, it's not exactly unlikely that a KB will go off. Obviously not guarenteed since it's a luck based game but on averages, 10 KB hatred attacks are very likely to get at east 1 KB.

[HalfBlood]

But can you put 10 KB on a character? You cant. Therefore KBing a character is possible, yet the odds are unlikely.

[DaemonReign]

I vote Dark Elves (with no experience of playing against WoC and Skaven) - and I haven't gotten enough games yet against the new VC book, although in the last game I played I was solemnly massacred by them.

[GodlessM]

Test it out man, it surprised me

That's not an argument. Luck can throw anything in this game, and anything is possible, but seeing Tomb Guard beat Bloodletters once off doesn't make a general blanket statment like 'Tomb Guard hammer Bloodletters' true. Giving the Bloodletters a Herald and giving the TG a Prince and Necrotect, both units hit with the same amount of attacks, same strength, and same rules. Bloodletters have a ward save but lesser toughness. Where they win out is on initiative. Striking first they negate many of the TG attacks. That's not to mention the chances that they KB the Necrotect and/or Prince before their presence in the unit has much effect.

[Enigmatik1]

How does that get really nasty? Not many players play TK in my area, however I did play 1 game where my letters (29) + a herald with bsb Great Icon of Despair (its my all-comers build). The horde ran into a TG unit of about 30 + Necrotek and Prince. The lettter unit did not get wiped, however I did lose combat. The units are about even. If I remember correct Necrotek gives the unit 6+ regen? The prince gives them Hatred and they can use his WS? However I am not exactly sure since I rarely played against them.

Necrotects do not provide Regeneration 6+ to his unit. The Hierophant would do this, but I would hope your opponent didn't have his Hierophant involved this combat. Necrotects only provide Hatred. Ramhotep would've provided Hatred and Frenzy. Princes (and Kings) pass their WS onto their units.

@ Godless-

Not quite the same. The Tomb Guard unit will end up being anywhere from 50-100 points more expensive by my count (depending on any Gifts/Upgrades the Herald has) and is Unstable as opposed to having Daemonic Instability. If Graxy's math is correct, that first round of combat, the Halberdguard unit is removing a total of 18 models (20 if this Herald is also the BSB). Gotta love Unstable! WOOT!

[The Low King]

But can you put 10 KB on a character? You cant. Therefore KBing a character is possible, yet the odds are unlikely.

Yes you can. As he explained, 2 heralds and 1 bloodletter are in B2B contact. Add in another 3 supporting attacks and that is 10 KB attacks on your character.

Average hits against the Tomb King will be 7.5, then any rolls to wound if a 6 and he is dead. thats roughly a 74% chance of him dieing.
Average hits against the Necrotect giving hatred will be 9, than any rolls to wound of 6 and he is dead (not to mention the fact that he is T4 and 2 wounds so will probably die anyway), thats an 81% chance of him dieing.

You can get 6 attacks on them even without the heralds.

[HalfBlood]

Necrotects do not provide Regeneration 6+ to his unit. The Hierophant would do this, but I would hope your opponent didn't have his Hierophant involved this combat. Necrotects only provide Hatred. Ramhotep would've provided Hatred and Frenzy. Princes (and Kings) pass their WS onto their units.

@ Godless-

Not quite the same. The Tomb Guard unit will end up being anywhere from 50-100 points more expensive by my count (depending on any Gifts/Upgrades the Herald has) and is Unstable as opposed to having Daemonic Instability. If Graxy's math is correct, that first round of combat, the Halberdguard unit is removing a total of 18 models (20 if this Herald is also the BSB). Gotta love Unstable! WOOT!

Thanks for clearifying that about the regen.

You also have to remember TG point cost also factors in the fact that they can heal more effectively then daemons can....

@ The Low King
I have never seen any competitive daemon list run 2 heralds in a bloodletter unit. I would also suspect a TK lord/hero would be at the end of the unit to prevent multipal attacks against them..