Most difficult / unbalanced lists to beat with a balanced list (POLL)

[GodlessM]

WE are actually one of my least favorite tournament draws. against a skilled opponent, it means that i pretty much auto-lose my greater daemon (i usually run keeper or GUO) and all my chaff, making it a matter of closing the gap the whole game.

Hate to break it to you, but closing the gap all game is exactly what Daemons are supposed to do. What in a WE army is a garuanteed dead GD? As for the match-up in general, you deny most of his ward saves just for having magical attacks, and your army doesn't suck; sounds like a perfect match-up for Daemons in my book.

[Bring_Back_Chaos_Dwarfs?]

Hmm, with no comp? Let's see, Daemons of Chaos: horror horde, plague bearer horde with the banner that allows wound rerolls, lots of flamers, a list with only herald characters maximizing units... so on and so on. Yeah, WoC chosen star and lord/ sorcerer lord w/ 3+ ward is pretty nasty too. WoC have the nastier hitting guys and have giant blocks of GW MoK marauders as well. WoC

[Askari]

Unless you specialize in killing characters... infact unless you are particularly good at killing characters, then I say Skaven. Even Chosenstar can spend all game fighting 200 Slaves while getting the 13th spell cast on them every other turn, losing plenty of their number. Then you can double Abom their other units while Warp Lightning Cannon nets their Warshrines and Plague Monks scythe Marauders.

[Phazael]

Skaven get smashed by monsterous infantry lists, but they are the current point denial kings. Dark Elves are pretty much the hardest matchup for any army to face, save perhaps HE who give them some issues.

[Kahadras]

Dark Elves are pretty much top of my list. I'd really hate playing against a Gunline Dark Elf army. Bolt Throwers, Repeater Crossbowmen, Dark Riders and Shades as far as the eye can see backed up by a magic heavy character loadout and maybe a combat unit/Hydra. With the Shades and Dark riders it's almost impossible to hide from the hail of strength 3 AP shots and if you push forward you end up running into 100+ crossbow bolts, 24 bolt thrower bolts and whatever nasty spells your opponant throws at you.

If somehow you manage to stagger though a couple of turns any surviving stuff you might have left is chaffed of redirected by the Crossbowmen or the Dark Riders. There might be worse lists out there but it's certainly the nastiest I've seen on the table.

Kahadras

[brother_maynard]

Hate to break it to you, but closing the gap all game is exactly what Daemons are supposed to do. What in a WE army is a garuanteed dead GD? As for the match-up in general, you deny most of his ward saves just for having magical attacks, and your army doesn't suck; sounds like a perfect match-up for Daemons in my book.

i agree with you on paper but the last 2 times i drew wood elves, i played tomasz tutaj of team poland i believe, fresh from winning best general with his WE at the conflict GT. believe me, 60-70 glade guard on the table and a beast mage with amber spear means the GD isn't going to live past turn 1 (turn 2 if you start it in a wood). the chaff war on the periphery can go either way, daemons have good chaff but WE have the tools to hold their own against em. and he kept doing the double-flee trick with his fast cav and eagles so neither of my blocks got into combat until turn 5 and not with anything substantial. by then the GD was dead and there was no way i was going to make up that many points from killing glade guard. he also had the rhymers harp on his level 4 and MR 3 on his bsb and he made sure to keep moving them to the only targets for MM that he gave me.

bit of a digression off topic i suppose, but it sounds like most of your opinion about WE stems from the fact that your local WE players just suck. they're definitely in need of a new book, and daemons are a strong army, but if those are the only two things that factor into wins in your gaming group, i think your skills may be called into question, but thats just me.

[Graxy]

For me, it's got to be lizards. They have access to literally, all of the chaf in the universe as well as having very potent combat units (that are arguably a point underpriced in the case of standard saurus warriors), and access to every rulebook lore as a loremaster. And don't even get me started on salamanders. Man a goblin have been burnt to a crisp by their flames

@brother_maynard 60-70 glade guard are pretty much common sense in a wood elf list, as is a beasts mage, as that is a key part of the few viable builds (not saying the army is week or anything, just needs to have thought put into it rather than some other armies). You said that you commonly use GUO or KOS, which are not going to do too well against wood elves. Keepers are too frail and GUO are just too slow. The more common bloodthirster however, has pretty mch a field day on wood elves. Basically, they get 1-2 turns of shooting (which is wounding on 6's) before being hit in the face by a massive axe. Amber spear, unless it's cast irresistably, is going to be (the daemon equivelant of) scrolled or just dispelled, and the second it gets into combat, it's almost guarenteed to make it's points back and set you up for the rest of the game. Regarding chaff, wood elves are the anti chaff army. There's basically a wall that ends 30 inches from them that makes chaff just dissapear if they try to walk through it. Really, the only option is to keep them out of range if possible and try to conserve VPs.

I'm not going to touch on that last paragraph, since it seems far too personal, and even a bit out of order.

[brother_maynard]

So you're saying if the DoC player doesn't use a thirster, its entirely possible to lose a tournament game to WE?

[logan054]

Warriors of chaos
They have an insane core unit, at 17pts with 3-4attacks and halberds, its not even funny to face them

Marauder hordes with great weapons and MoK, chosen eotg abuse, MoT and miscast manipulation are the problem with WoC, Chaos warriors are fine, they can also only have 3 attacks most with halberds and MoK, if they lose combat they go back to two attacks, being frenzied it easy enough to get them into a position for a flank charge, they also have the issue of only leadership 8 which makes it far more likely they will fail frenzy checks and try and charge at the wrong time. Chaos warriors are certainly good but because of the price of the unit its very hard to field enough of them to actually have enough ranks to to allow them to break steadfast.

Dark Elves
A couple of nasty lord builds, and everyone knows Hydras are cheap

Erm no, far more things than that, Ring on Hotek, anything within 12" miscasts on any roll of a double (nasty on a stubborn peg lore with a reverse wardsave), dagger in a large units of spearmen (kill a guy, get a powerdice), generally underpriced units (spearmen 6pts, hatred, I5), black guard, dragon egg (so my character becomes T6 and gains a S4 breath weapon for a turn), cheap magic items in general, power of darkness, they really have one of the most brutal magic phases about, it becomes sickening when they can throw as many dice as they want at a spell. Hydras are insane, I've actually wiped out armies with them, my mate wasn't amused when he charged a daemon prince and a shaggoth into one and my Hydra killed them both (killing the shaggoth with its S5 breath weapon). Oh I nearly forgot about the Cauldron, such a stupid unit, its kinda like a warshrine, but you get to pick your buff.

Skaven
Do I really need to say it? Warpstone war machine spamming

And dreaded 13th of course

Daemons of chaos
From what ive seen and faced in their armies, they are tough in a lot of ways. But ive not seen any unbeatable lists

No army is unbeatable, they are still one of the best books, flamers are sick, bloodletter hordes are nasty, Karios is insane, The masque combined with great icon of despair can make units up to -5 leadership, add in some lore of death and you can pretty much auto break units you charge, they will certainly be failing fear tests and hitting on 5's (unless immune of course), blue scribes (every time your opponent gets a spell off you get a extra powerdice next turn), I actually sold my daemons because they are that boring to use.

So to answer your original question, which is the hardest to phase with a balanced list, I think its a toss up between Skaven, Dark Elves and Daemons depending on the army your using.

[HalfBlood]

DoC are about rated 5th, after <Skaven, DE, WoC ,Lizards, and some argue Ogres>

Flamers were meant for last edition, now they are good at what they do, however I would not consider them as "sick".

Bloodletter Hordes are T3 with 1 attack. Most armies can ruin them in CC. Like WoC, Skaven Slaves, Khorne Maruders, Tomb Guard, ect.

Karios is I 1 drop a Initiative test on his dead.

Masque + Icon Great Icon of Despair has a maximum potential of reducing your LD by -5 ( most likely reducing you by -4) (thats also if your within 12 inches and are not capable of taking crown of commandment on your general). Also the Masque only has 2 wounds and is T3 its not hard to put a few missile shots into her.

Auto break units when you charge? Are you still playing 7th? Do you take a bsb or Crown? I just dont understand how they will be "certain to fail their fear tests"

Blue scribs is just a bad hero choice nothing more.


With that said the most difficult army to play against is clearly Skaven with DE following.

[logan054]

While bloodletters are only T3 they are also only 12pts a pop and ignore a 3rd of the rounds that come at the, marauders will certainly ruin them with MoK and great weapons, what wont they ruin? they are unpriced with MoK, skaven is another issue, they are amazing if against infantry heavy lists, poor against MI heavy lists, because of that I would rate them a bit below daemons who will generally do well against most lists

Flamers are still nasty as hell, being meant for the last edition is a problem with so many of the over powered things.

While that is true on Karios that relies on you casting the spell and it landing on target.

Being steadfast has no effect on those items/abilities, steadfast means you don't take the negative modifiers for how much you lost combat, it is no longer a unmodified leadership as per the faq.

So Terror doesn't cause panic tests on the charge? sorry, I assumed that would be obvious as we are talking about 8th ed and daemons and considering they have Terror causers, that is the only way to break something on the charge other than them electing to flee of course (well off the top of my head anyways).

[HalfBlood]

Flamers are still nasty as hell, being meant for the last edition is a problem with so many of the over powered things.

Flamers are good I cant deny that, however with tweaks they can easily be fixed. I would prefer them to have 3 shots a model with everything else kept the same.

While bloodletters are only T3 they are also only 12pts a pop and ignore a 3rd of the rounds that come at the, marauders will certainly ruin them with MoK and great weapons, what wont they ruin? they are unpriced with MoK, skaven is another issue, they are amazing if against infantry heavy lists, poor against MI heavy lists, because of that I would rate them a bit below daemons who will generally do well against most lists

debating whether bloodletters should be upted a point or down a point can go either way depending on who argues. They still are T3 with 1 attack they are not nasty at all.

While that is true on Karios that relies on you casting the spell and it landing on target.

You also have to remember that Karios has a weakness that can be exploited by most armies, he also costs for 600+ points and is completely geared toward the magic phase. Its a large gamble because a few bad rolls for magic phase and Karios is pretty much being wasted.


Yes being Steadfast means you wont suffer any negative modifiers in CC. However Great Icon of Despair + Masque automatically subtract your LD. So if your LD 8 and are steadfast, however your opponent has GIoD and Masque thats about a - (3-5) to your LD even if your steadfast.

Crown of Commandment makes you stubborn which means you suffer no modifiers to your LD which means you dont have to worry about being LD bombed from a certain unit.

Terror is only on GD, which take up our entire Lord choice, can only be taken in games 2000+ and in order for this LD bomb to work the Masque must be within her dance range, and GIoD must be within 12 inches, and the GD has to charge a unit thats not immune to psyc/not stubborn. And if that all works the daemonplayer is spending over 700 points to make 1 unit flee? Nothing OP about that.

[Duke Ramulots]

Im gonna go army by army:

Brets: The only things I have problems with are lore of metal and shadow so Id say High elves

Orcs N Goblins: as a combat oriented army I have a super hard time with chosenstars

Wood elves: Ogres, to much fire and they move faster than my elves.

[Rosstifer]

Hate to break it to you, but closing the gap all game is exactly what Daemons are supposed to do. What in a WE army is a garuanteed dead GD? As for the match-up in general, you deny most of his ward saves just for having magical attacks, and your army doesn't suck; sounds like a perfect match-up for Daemons in my book.

60+ shots make a mess of a Greater Daemon, unless it's a Thirster with a 3+ armour save. 60 shots at S3, BS4 and long range kills a Kipper in 2 turns on average, and 60 shots is pretty conservative for a Woodies army these days. Daemonic Infantry drops like flies to S3/4 shooting. Not an auto loss by any means, but a reasonably though game for both sides.

[Duke Ramulots]

Hate to break it to you, but closing the gap all game is exactly what Daemons are supposed to do. What in a WE army is a garuanteed dead GD? As for the match-up in general, you deny most of his ward saves just for having magical attacks, and your army doesn't suck; sounds like a perfect match-up for Daemons in my book.

Do you actually play aginst WE's or are you going off internet wisdom? I only ask because as a WE player I find Daemons to be the best matchup for me to take my Woodies against. I like how GG can delete the little daemons wholesale while a T-10 Treeman holds up the thirster for a few turns(and sometimes wins).

[Dazza612]

I wanted to actually equally post skaven and warriors. Chosen star is very good but it's the stubborn, immune to psychology horde of 40-50 marauders with mark of khorne with great weapons or flails the double engine and double hellcannon which freaks me out and the chosen unit or warriors of chaos unit deathstar. Or skaven, you can field an almost entirely unbreakable army, have loads of magic and shooting and 100 + slaves on the table is never fun.

[thelonewarrior]

Back to the warriors of chaos. I played a game recently where my ally spent 600pts in a 1000pts game on a massive unit of 3 attacks halberds chaos warriors, who went on to gain +1 attack from something that happend due to a challenge. The only other things he had were a level 2 wizard, some altar and a units of wolves.
He charged a unit of 30 grave guard, and killed 29 with kills alone, then crumbled the last one, I was happy I was allied with him but that kind of unit is ridiculous

[Jerry]

Why have you chosen to include Bretonnia instead of Daemons of chaos?

[Duke Ramulots]

Back to the warriors of chaos. I played a game recently where my ally spent 600pts in a 1000pts game on a massive unit of 3 attacks halberds chaos warriors, who went on to gain +1 attack from something that happend due to a challenge. The only other things he had were a level 2 wizard, some altar and a units of wolves.
He charged a unit of 30 grave guard, and killed 29 with kills alone, then crumbled the last one, I was happy I was allied with him but that kind of unit is ridiculous

So, he had a 600 point unit in a 1000 point game? Did he have the minimum three units? You do know that a M4 frenzied unit is pretty easily avoided dont you?

[thelonewarrior]

Yes he had a war altar of some kind, a unit of wolves and his 600pt unit (so yes 3 units) and also a naked level 2 which got bolt throwered on turn 1. I was using my dark elves. I covered his flank as we were allied and he just ploughed through everything.......

The battle report is here if your interested:
http://druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=70470

And @ Jerry I just deleted a few from the list as I had too many options for the poll, if you want to vote for daemons of chaos please just say in your post you vote for them, and ill add them up at the end. On other forums some people have left a couple of votes for bretonia but not daemons (dunno why, bretonia are an easy victory in my eyes at the moment)