A new strategy to replace B&M

[xxRavenxx]

Should I be so impossibly amused by how you're pretending to be attacked to avoid the way that four people have pointed out the numbers your father pointed out would be impossible for an actual accountant to reach?

It reminds me of the "Wounded gazelle" technique out of a manga: "In a girl fight, she who cries first wins."

Except that this is the internet, and we aren't in a girl fight or comparing opinions, we're comparing facts. If you don't like those facts, that's all fine and good; but you shouldn't act the victim in an attempt to win an argument that you've lost.

I'll bite just one last time.

1. You just made yet another veiled personal attack, claiming he's not an accountant 2. I'm not attempting to win anything. This isn't some cunning competition, there is no prize. 3. I will repeat: You cause me to have zero interest in discussing this, as you're not out for a discussion, just baying for the blood of a company, and anyone who doesn't think the company is a complete failure. Its uninteresting, and goes in circles.

[lanrak]

Hi Orrinoco.
I can distinctly remember back in the mists of time.'...GWs heavy investment in new cutting edge sculpting and plastic manufacturing is to bring the entry level of our great hobby to a wider audience...'(I may have paraphrased a bit.)

And the 5 (some snap together )minatures in a box for £6, was a pocket money price attempt...

But as inflation has risen about 40% from the release of the plastic Catachan Jungle fighters, (60p each.£12 for 20.)
They should be about 90p(max) each now if GW raised prices level with inflation.

But they are currently 180p each !(£18 for 10)

IF GW plc '...are in the buisness of selling toy soldiers to children..'and a '...manufacturer first and foremost...'
The attempt at costly insular marketing from own brand B&M stores is so far from apropriate its bodering on insanity.

I agree GW could take advantage of the economies of scale and sell far more product at MUCH lower prices!(In large retail outlets.)

[iamfanboy]

As you are not attacking my argument, but rather myself, I'll have to assume you've accepted the validity of my math evaluating Games Workshop's income problems, even if you don't admit it.


Frankly, all of this has not touched on the key reason to separate GW more from retail: retail is a very volatile business, especially when it comes to games. It's just not safe; yes, it CAN generate increased income, but is the increased liability worth it, especially for a one-product store?

Companies like Disney have learned the hard way that no it's not. Apple is (frankly) a fluke, and an odd one worthy of dissertation, but plenty of other one-note retail businesses have come and gone.

Hell, I remember Wizards of the Coast stores - but they had the right idea, to basically make a 'chain' of indie gamestores selling tons of different product. Why, I picked up a zombie dragon at one years ago when I had every intention of starting up a VC army. Still, they decided to close 'em down, and I can't blame them.

While it's an attractive idea to create a monopoly, monopolies don't last, and when they collapse they collapse hard.

[Trasvi]

Why not compare GW to clothes brands? Plenty of clothes brands maintain exclusive stores as well as selling to department stores. They seem to do well enough and appear in many places, often offering exactly the same products as a big store next door. Apple is definitely an oddity worthy of many dissertations, but it has a lot to do with their marketing (as a cool consumer product), their execution (well made, beautiful, and initially so far beyond their competition they create a new market), their appeal to mass market (majority of consumers don't care about gigawhatsits), and their stores thrive because of their sleek look and fantastic customer service.

As above: the entry level is so high now that it turns people away in droves. There are very few 'gift-level' products.
Look at what it costs to start wargames: looking at getting a single player force and enough rules to play the game at the most basic level, without using any 2-force starter bundle cheats.
Malifaux: 40 GBP will get you a crew, full rulebook and card deck (and possible another fig or two)
Warmachine: 35 GBP for a battlegroup with starter rules, plus 25 for a full rulebook.
Spartan (any): 45 GBP
FoW (don't know enough about it, help?)
GW: 115 = 60 (battleforce) + 20 (codex) + 35 (rules)

[SunTzu]

I'll bite just one last time.

1. You just made yet another veiled personal attack, claiming he's not an accountant 2. I'm not attempting to win anything. This isn't some cunning competition, there is no prize. 3. I will repeat: You cause me to have zero interest in discussing this, as you're not out for a discussion, just baying for the blood of a company, and anyone who doesn't think the company is a complete failure. Its uninteresting, and goes in circles.

Maybe it wouldn't if you based your position on facts, instead of what your father says (even when it contradicts GW's own published figures).

You've not given any counter to iamfanboy's points; just made some baseless claims, then thrown a bit of a mini-huff when their baselessness was pointed out. Possibly if you reassessed your position based on the idea that your initial premise has been shown to be incorrect, you'd not lead the discussion around in circles?

[Demrush]

If I was in charge, I would sell off most of the GW stores as franchises, and then expand a handful of strategically placed stores into 'mini Warhammer worlds', where you could run events as well as present the hobby to parents in a more relaxed and complete way...

I like this idea...Significantly reduce the number of stores but invest in mini-warhammer worlds in big markets and good locations. That way, if the stores remain in big cities, they are still accessible and because they will be larger stores, they will be more enticing for people to attend. I only go to my local GW every 3-4 months to buy paints and check out new releases but never bother hanging around too much as it is pretty cramped. If the store were bigger, I'd have no problem hanging around playing games and attending more often.

[The bearded one]

I like this idea...Significantly reduce the number of stores but invest in mini-warhammer worlds in big markets and good locations. That way, if the stores remain in big cities, they are still accessible and because they will be larger stores, they will be more enticing for people to attend. I only go to my local GW every 3-4 months to buy paints and check out new releases but never bother hanging around too much as it is pretty cramped. If the store were bigger, I'd have no problem hanging around playing games and attending more often.

On the flipside I do go to my local GW regularly, and hang out there to game and paint once or twice a week, and my local GW was indeed an important driving factor behind me getting into wargaming. Otherwise I don't think I would've found out about warhammer at all, as I don't tend to surf the web looking for a hobby unknown to me. In my opinion and from my own experience, the B&M stores are pretty important for bringing in new players and introducing them to this hobby.

[eron12]

On the flipside I do go to my local GW regularly, and hang out there to game and paint once or twice a week, and my local GW was indeed an important driving factor behind me getting into wargaming. Otherwise I don't think I would've found out about warhammer at all, as I don't tend to surf the web looking for a hobby unknown to me. In my opinion and from my own experience, the B&M stores are pretty important for bringing in new players and introducing them to this hobby.

I think people need to distignush between B&M stores in general, and GW b&m stores. I would agree that physical stores play a huge role in introducing people to the hobby. However, I would suggest that an independent store is in a better position to do this than a GW store. For one thing, as noted above, GW has to subsidize its existing stores, while leaving large tracts of the world uncovered. I live quite close to a store by US standards, and it's still over 300km away. Besides the fact that GW can't provide the needed stores, indies provide an invaluable oppertunity for cross exposure to different hobbies. I don't think I ever would have gotten into Warhammer if i hadn't seen a display in the indy store i went to to buy rpg books. My current store is a kalidascope of different games and hobbies, provinding anyone who walks in with a variety of visible options, regardless of what they came for. GW stores simply cannot do that.

In conculsion, B&M stores good, but GW b&m stores are generally unneeded.

[Miredorf]

More importantly however, if an indie gets you into GW for example, and then you go on to purchase your GW from an online retailer, the indie who got you into the game sees no finanical benefit. If on the other hand, a GW store gets you into Warhammer, then you go on to make all your purchases through Maelstrom Games, the ultimate winner is still GW.

Sorry? this has no logic at all haha. Since ultimately all sales are coming from online retailers, it would be much better for them not having the expense of a store and leaving indies that burden, wouldnt it?

[canberraguy]

Sorry? this has no logic at all haha. Since ultimately all sales are coming from online retailers, it would be much better for them not having the expense of a store and leaving indies that burden, wouldnt it?

You guys do not get sales and marketing do you? Indies are by comparison far poorer at getting brand new players into the hobby. They are low cost so are often in out of the way places and often have surly or clicky staff with extremely poor customer service. Most "f" lgs staff would not enthusiastically introduce a young kid, with his mum there too, to a game of 40k. They are far more likely to ignore him. By having all these stores that they run, and can control the attitudes of their staff and far more new players will be recruited.

It is also similar to how apple stores work. They are there to promote apple products. Yes they want to sell things and make enough money to cover the cost of running the store, but their primary focus is to promote the brand. If the person buys their iPhone or whatever from elsewhere that is not a major issue. Same with GW stores. Most GW product is sold online or in other stores. But most customers were exposed to GW from going into a GW store, or from a person playing that went into a GW store.

[SunTzu]

But I speculate most customers in the UK were possibly exposed to GW from going into a GW store

FTFY.

The US is GW's largest market, BTW. You might want to think about that. Many GW players in the US have never been within a hundred miles of a GW store. Explain again why GW stores are so critical to their ongoing success? (In the days before the internet, yes they were. Now... no).

[canberraguy]

Not sure what ftfy means.

[shelfunit.]

You guys do not get sales and marketing do you?

It's probably not something that should be too visible on your CV either...

Indies are by comparison far poorer at getting brand new players into the hobby.

Something they seem to have been quite successful at across the world, possibly not the mythical "GW hobby", but the wargaming hobby as a whole they have been pretty good at, at least going by all the wargamers in locations sans GW - ie most of the world outside the UK.

They are low cost so are often in out of the way places and often have surly or clicky staff with extremely poor customer service. Most "f" lgs staff would not enthusiastically introduce a young kid, with his mum there too, to a game of 40k. They are far more likely to ignore him. By having all these stores that they run, and can control the attitudes of their staff and far more new players will be recruited.

And yet still they exist and survive year in year out, going by your description of them they would have no customers by the end of the week, and would all be out of business by the end of the month.

It is also similar to how apple stores work. They are there to promote apple products. Yes they want to sell things and make enough money to cover the cost of running the store, but their primary focus is to promote the brand. If the person buys their iPhone or whatever from elsewhere that is not a major issue. Same with GW stores. Most GW product is sold online or in other stores. But most customers were exposed to GW from going into a GW store, or from a person playing that went into a GW store.

The difference is that Apple are growing and GW are not, Apple are releasing innovative new products, GW are releasing the same materials in new packaging.

[canberraguy]

I actually have a career in sales and business management. By age 26 I was managing a $20millon dollar electrical retail store and kept doing so until leaving the retail industry last year. I know a lot more than most about sales and customer service.

I would suggest that most lgs are not good at expanding the hobby. They barely survive financially mostly. It was GW in the 80s and 90s that grew wargaming from basically nothing to a massive retail chain.

I know that there are a lot of great games stores but there are many that when you walk in ignore you. I know america is a different beast and I am not from there but I would also suggest as proof to the effectiveness of GWs model that "per capita " they get most of their sales from the UK. This I suggest is due to their prevalence of retail stores to recruit new players. The same level of stores per person will never happen in the US because of the size of the country and the massive capital needed to do so.

[canberraguy]

Also, the net is a massive challenge for any retailer. But in the case of GW I think are going about it ok. People can buy off the new and that is ok but will the net recruit new players? Very few. That is the reason for the success of stores. Cases full of cool painted figures. That is how new players are recruited and the hobby we all love continues. If stores (GW and FLGs) close the hobby will die very quickly.

[Baragash]

but I would also suggest as proof to the effectiveness of GWs model that "per capita " they get most of their sales from the UK. This I suggest is due to their prevalence of retail stores to recruit new players.

The point is that it is no longer effective/not effective enough, per GW's own financial reports.

[canberraguy]

They are less so yes, and some stores needed to be moved or closed, same as here in Australia. But the core need for store remains.

[EmperorNorton]

I would suggest that most lgs are not good at expanding the hobby. They barely survive financially mostly. It was GW in the 80s and 90s that grew wargaming from basically nothing to a massive retail chain.

I know that there are a lot of great games stores but there are many that when you walk in ignore you. I know america is a different beast and I am not from there but I would also suggest as proof to the effectiveness of GWs model that "per capita " they get most of their sales from the UK. This I suggest is due to their prevalence of retail stores to recruit new players. The same level of stores per person will never happen in the US because of the size of the country and the massive capital needed to do so.

The market penetration GW has achieved in the UK is fantastic, no question about it.
But at what cost? That's been discussed at lenth now and I am not convinced that the stores are worth it from a financial standpoint.
And I am certain that the importance of physical stores (and I don't mean GW exclusively here) will only go down while internet sales will keep on growing. GW will have to adjust their strategy.

That aside, I don't share your negative view about independent game stores. I quite like that I can go into an indy store without the staff trying to force the newest releases down my throat. They usually are helpful when asked, but not as pushy as GW redshirts trying to meet their quota.
While it's true that the staff at indy stores won't have an interest in spending their time on introducing somebody to a specific game in the same way a GW store will, in my experience they will gladly point out the regulars or gaming groups attached to the store who will happily cover that part.

[canberraguy]

I agree with your point about flgs. As an established gamer I prefer them too. But the point i am making is that they are usually pretty bad at getting new people into the game as they do not have a sales focus. The GW stores do. And it is vital for GW to get new people into the hobby to replace people that leave it ( a different conversation altogether, although no matter what GW do some people will always leave the hobby) and it is vital for the hobby as a whole that new people join it. And GW stores do this.

[Omniassiah]

I know that there are a lot of great games stores but there are many that when you walk in ignore you. I know america is a different beast and I am not from there but I would also suggest as proof to the effectiveness of GWs model that "per capita " they get most of their sales from the UK. This I suggest is due to their prevalence of retail stores to recruit new players. The same level of stores per person will never happen in the US because of the size of the country and the massive capital needed to do so.

Unfortunately the fact that the numbers point out that GW spends more on the stores in the UK to make that large per capita amount then they actually make there, is not a shining example of marketing success. the fact that America with its much reduced to non existent presence has to help support GW's presence in the UK is further proof that they are doing wrong. Sure the "High Street" mentality may get more people in the door but if they don't stay you are losing vast amounts of income. Its a generally accepted fact in marketing that you will spend 6 times as much trying to recruit a new customer then you do keeping an old customer and it shows in GW financials.