Models embarked in transports

[Prosservc]

Hi,

Sorry if this is noob question; but if you have models in transports, do you have to declare what the contents are

i.e. if i have a unit of guardians in a wave serpent, do i have to let my opponent know they are in there or not

I only ask as two of the people i have played recently completely disagree on this, so i need some clarification

[Bunnahabhain]

Yes, you should. See page 92 of the rule book, " A note on secrecy"

Furthermore, it is conventional in this era of multiple transports to mark which unit is in which transport. With (for example) 8 chimeras in an identical paint scheme, expecting your opponent ( or sometimes even yourself...) to remember which unit is in which is a bit much. Therefore people do stuff such as:

Have squad and transport both bearing the same unit number- easier for some races than others.
Sticking a member of the unit on top of the transport
Writing, A, B, C etc on the bottom of the transport, and having the units inside next to a note saying A, B, C

Or some other way to make it clear which unit is where, so there is no doubt. It also makes it impossible for the unit to magically teleport to the transport that didn't just explode..

Of course, if you opponent has one land raider with a terminator death star unit in it, and the rest on foot, everyone will remember without help.

[don_mondo]

Not should, but must.

[druchii]

Not should, but must.

Only if both people agree to it. P92 is pretty clear on the matter.

That being said, it is far preferable to fully disclose your army list to your opponent. It prevents "unit swapping" and the ever present "uh, oh, I forgot this unit has this conveniently useful upgrade...".

d

[wilsongrahams]

Whilst I'm not debating the rules, my preferred method for enclosed vehicles, is to note which unit is in which transport on my list, and state that these 3 units are in these 3 transports - why should my enemy know where my elites are without being able to see inside? For open topped vehicles I don't bother but try to put a member on it - in my case it's only my Orks that are open-topped.

My group like to include some realism at times and none of us are likely to cheat and swap units about, plus the list is always availsble to check if needed.

[druchii]

Whilst I'm not debating the rules, my preferred method for enclosed vehicles, is to note which unit is in which transport on my list, and state that these 3 units are in these 3 transports - why should my enemy know where my elites are without being able to see inside? For open topped vehicles I don't bother but try to put a member on it - in my case it's only my Orks that are open-topped.

My group like to include some realism at times and none of us are likely to cheat and swap units about, plus the list is always availsble to check if needed.

So what, exactly then, is your question?

d

[wilsongrahams]

No question - in fact the one I did ask was why should my opponent know what is in each transport when there would be no way to tell if I had actually put the models inside.

I was simply pointing out how it is often played in my group to prevent every AT weapon shooting at the only wave serpent with fire dragons in and ignoring those with guardians. Very unrealistic, and ruins the surprise 'Damn I should have shot that one!' etc...

Maybe it's because I started in 2nd edition and you noted in secret what was where, rather than declaring.

[don_mondo]

Only if both people agree to it. P92 is pretty clear on the matter.

That being said, it is far preferable to fully disclose your army list to your opponent. It prevents "unit swapping" and the ever present "uh, oh, I forgot this unit has this conveniently useful upgrade...".

d

No, page 92 says that the list swap is upon player agreement. Disclosing contents of a transport is not.
"A NOTE ON SECRECY
To keep things fair, you should always allow your opponent to read your force roster after a game. In the same spirit, always make clear to your opponent which
squads are embarked in which transport vehicle."
In the same spirit (ie the spirit of 'keep things fair'), ALWAYS....... Not if you both agree, not after the game, etc etc. Always. Then the rest of the paragraph goes on to talk more about list sharing but says nothing more on transports, which leaves the aforementioned "always" in effect no matter what. I'm amazed at how many people manage to misread that because they think that 'real world' there's no way the enemy would know what is where. Well, guess what. It's not real world, it's a game and the rule says you always make clear which squad is where. If you're opponent asks, the rules say you must reveal. Sure, you can both agree not to, that's called a house rule and has no bearing on how the rules actually work. And I started in 2nd also, but I have no problem with the rule.....................................

[Lupe]

Well, if both players agree on secrecy, I'd suggest a small trick to prevent the "unit swapping". Write the content of the transport on a piece of paper and tape it to the underside of the vehicle before the game. When a vehicle is destroyed, you know exactly what was in it.

[Culven]

. . . In the same spirit, always make clear to your opponent which
squads are embarked in which transport vehicle."
In the same spirit (ie the spirit of 'keep things fair'), ALWAYS....... Not if you both agree, not after the game, etc etc. Always. Then the rest of the paragraph goes on to talk more about list sharing but says nothing more on transports, which leaves the aforementioned "always" in effect no matter what. I'm amazed at how many people manage to misread that because they think that 'real world' there's no way the enemy would know what is where. . .If you're opponent asks, the rules say you must reveal . . .

Even with this requirement, there is nothing defining the level of detail needed. One would be following the rule stating "My HQ Unit is in this Rhino", but one would also be within the rules by declaring "Unit 1 is in Rhino 1" and then marking on their roster which Unit is Unit 1. Both inform the opponent of which Unit is in which Transport. This would also allow for the secret list play that some players prefer while ensuring that there are no shell games.

[druchii]

No, page 92 says that the list swap is upon player agreement. Disclosing contents of a transport is not.
"A NOTE ON SECRECY
To keep things fair, you should always allow your opponent to read your force roster after a game. In the same spirit, always make clear to your opponent which
squads are embarked in which transport vehicle."
In the same spirit (ie the spirit of 'keep things fair'), ALWAYS....... Not if you both agree, not after the game, etc etc. Always. Then the rest of the paragraph goes on to talk more about list sharing but says nothing more on transports, which leaves the aforementioned "always" in effect no matter what. I'm amazed at how many people manage to misread that because they think that 'real world' there's no way the enemy would know what is where. Well, guess what. It's not real world, it's a game and the rule says you always make clear which squad is where. If you're opponent asks, the rules say you must reveal. Sure, you can both agree not to, that's called a house rule and has no bearing on how the rules actually work. And I started in 2nd also, but I have no problem with the rule.....................................

So essentially you're saying you have to tell your opponent what squad (this squad of Tactical Marines) but not the composition of the squad (This undetermined number of tactical marines, with secret weapons and all) is in a transport?

I'm also confused as to why you think I believe 40k has anything to do with the "real world".

d

[don_mondo]

Yeah, and the words unit 1 on your army roster can be erased and moved or maybe you have two different copies, the little slip of paper from under the transport can be swapped out, etc etc. If someone wants to cheat and play a shell game, they will find a way to do UNLESS they are required to explicitly spell out which unit is in which transport. And guess what rule was written with that in mind (according to the guys that wrote the rulesbook)? Yep, the one we're discussing. And as long as there is confusion IN MY MIND about which unit is in the transport, you have not made it clear, as required by the rule. So quit trying to hedge, quit trying to pull shenanigans and just tell them what's in there. Personally, I can only see one reason not to spell it out as the rule requires. And it ain't a good one.

[agurus1]

I agree with don_mondo, I see no reason to to reveal which unit is it which transport, especially when the wording of the rule is so (remarkably) clear. For my IG, I always stick the sergeant of each unit on-top of their chimera and say something like "these are the melta veterans here, and the plasma veterans in this one"

[jubilex]

Personally, I can only see one reason not to spell it out as the rule requires. And it ain't a good one.

I think that's pretty unfair.

I play virtually exclusively with mates and we all agree that secret passengers makes the game better.
A note on a list is fine with us.

[niknokitueu]

I think that's pretty unfair.

I play virtually exclusively with mates and we all agree that secret passengers makes the game better.
A note on a list is fine with us.

...Which is your perogative. One that I happen to agree with, but that is besides the point.

If I was playing Don_Mundo, playing in a tournament, or really anyone that actually wanted such clarification, I would happily tell them. And then require the same level of reciprication.

Rules is rules, afterall...

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu
ps. As I play Orks, I tend to place a relevent model from the relevent mob on the trukk - it helps remind me (a) that there is someone aboard, and (b) which trukk is which. Play for fun, stay for the Krumpin'.

[rellen22]

There are whole armies without access to transports, this may be part of the reason that keeping the contents secret is not general practice (or allowed by the rules) as it would be a major disadvantage if one of these armies faced an army with transports whose contents where unknown, as they could not use this tactic as well

[Kelanen]

Anyone that plays competitively is used to reading an opponents entire roster before the game, knowing all the upgrades, weapons and psychic powers, and of course - precisely what is in each transport.

It's not realistic, but nor is 95% of this game, it;s just the way it's played.

[jubilex]

If I was playing Don_Mundo, playing in a tournament, or really anyone that actually wanted such clarification, I would happily tell them. And then require the same level of reciprication.

I'm not objecting to his opinion of the rules, they are correct, but I don't agree with his conclusion about why someone might wish to do things differently.

A few weeks ago, I played a mates blood angels with my night lords and secretly chuckled away as he fired most of his army at an empty rhino ...

If I was playing Don_Mundo,

Yes, that Don_Mundo is a sinister chap.

[don_mondo]

Perhaps my viewpoint is skewed due to having been on the receiving end of someone trying to play a shell game at a GW GT. Too bad for him I was videotaping the game and rewound to show him he was 'wrong' about what was in which transport. Should two players want to play with secrecy, go for it. It's the one's that insist on it without agreement that I would consider a bit shady.

Yes, that Don_Mundo is a sinister chap.

It's an alias, and I prefer nefarious......................................

[niknokitueu]

It's an alias, and I prefer nefarious......................................

Heh. My apologies, and I will attempt to spell your name correctly next time.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu