Painting, history, oh my...!

[Lars Porsenna]

Still not sure if I'm going to participate, but for reference, I took some pics of a current model project and posted them up on my blog: http://www.minislikedust.blogspot.co...-iii-ausf.html

What do people think of my photo taking skills? Good enough? This FYI was taken in the bathroom -- overhead lights make for better photography, not to mention the acoustics make for better singing...wait forget I said that...

Damon.

[sigur]

You know that these are absolutely sufficient, you modest man!

[Ben]

Oh I see. Would you sculpt caparisons on, a' la PsychosisPC, or would you leave the horses as is?

Quite possibly, so it'd be quite a substantial mini project.

[GomezAddams]

You know what would really help and get more people involved? An idiots guide to historical gaming. Things like scale, companies that make figures, quality over quantity, metal over plastic, where to look for historical info etc.

With so many scales and periods available, and some many systems to play, I have to admit that I find it a little daunting sometimes.

[EmperorNorton]

With so many scales and periods available, and some many systems to play, I have to admit that I find it a little daunting sometimes.

Same here, historical gaming is terra incognita for me.
I might be interested in some WW1 models and rules to go along with them wouldn't hurt, either, but I don't have a clue where to start looking.

[Ben]

Same here, historical gaming is terra incognita for me.
I might be interested in some WW1 models and rules to go along with them wouldn't hurt, either, but I don't have a clue where to start looking.

Depends what scale you want to do.

If you want to do 28mm scale skirmish (trench raids, battles on a very limited front) then Warhammer Historical do a book called 'The Great War'.

You can get minis from http://www.renegademiniatures.com/ww1.htm, but there are other manufacturers as well.

There are no 28mm plastics, and while you might be able to source some 1/48 scale plastic tanks, 1/56 scale WW1 stuff is limited if you want lots of armoured cars and vehicles.

However Copplestone Castings do some WW1 era vehicles, mostly for Russian civil war (but most of them originated with the Western powers, like the Austin Putilov armoured car).

For 20mm there are plenty of vehicles, and some excellent plastics. The American Doughboys produced by Emhar are excellent.

At 15mm you start getting to the sort of scale you can do massed battles with. Peter Pig do a compatible range.

At 6mm or 1/300 you start being able to game big battles in WW1.

For character and fun painting I'd go for 28mm or 1/72 scale. I would create some modular trench scenery (and if you go with 28mm you can use it for 40k) so you don't permanently have the same layout. A google will probably find you either boards you can buy or some interesting terrain projects. You might even customise your tale to be 1 squad or vehicle and one terrain board per month.

[Ben]

You know what would really help and get more people involved? An idiots guide to historical gaming. Things like scale, companies that make figures, quality over quantity, metal over plastic, where to look for historical info etc.

With so many scales and periods available, and some many systems to play, I have to admit that I find it a little daunting sometimes.

I've got a little time, I'll put one together.

[Codsticker]

We have a list of manufacturers at the top of the forum but it is only a list; a proper guide that would be a helpfull introduction could turn into a substantial article.

[f2k]

You know what would really help and get more people involved? An idiots guide to historical gaming. Things like scale, companies that make figures, quality over quantity, metal over plastic, where to look for historical info etc.

With so many scales and periods available, and some many systems to play, I have to admit that I find it a little daunting sometimes.

Actually, I was hoping that a Tale of Historical Wargamers would help bringing some spotlight on historical wargaming.

As for all your suggestions: where to buy, where to find history, what rules to use... I was kinda hoping that that would become a part of the tale as well by asking people to write a bit about the history of the unit they just painted.

One idea might be to collect all our ideas and info in a "How to play hitorical games" sticky thread in this sub-forum (if the Powers That Be can be talked into it). I can write a bit on WWII if there's any interest...

[sigur]

That's all really inspiring. I think that for starters a list of links plus one sentence about each of the most popular eras for historical wargaming are and links for information, rules and miniatures would work really nicely. Best would be to keep it short and as a quick overview.

[Ben]

I was going to say I started writing a breakdown of eras and by the end of High Medieval it's already over a page long. It's probably best broken up and spread around the thread, perhaps with everyone's opening post being a bit about the era they are doing, the army they are doing and the rules and miniatures they will be using.

[sigur]

That's all really inspiring. I think that for starters a list of links plus one sentence about each of the most popular eras for historical wargaming are and links for information, rules and miniatures would work really nicely. Best would be to keep it short and as a quick overview.

@EmperorNorton: When you're completely new to historical wargaming (as I am really), I really suggest listening to the Meeples and Miniatures podcast. It's so darned inspiring that you'll end up wanting to play EVERYTHING historical. The presentation is calm, very British in a way, very informed and enthusiastic without being bothersome. The reviews are generally done in a positive light but that's more based on the fact that it's mostly things the guy who does the podcast likes rather than an uncritical mindset. The podcast slightly favors historical wargaming over sci-fi/fantasy and you won't hear about GW, PPP or any other big company. It's an excellent podcast with many fans.

Anyhow, as for WW1, I don't know much about models but those can be found pretty quickly. In terms of rulesets and apart from WH, there's Through the Mud and the Blood. It's a skirmish system for ww1 by Too Fat Lardies who usually champion a kind of rules design that goes for how you can create historically accurate situations and how you're then forced to make decisions and use tactics that in this situation historically would have been used as well instead of solutions based on the ruleset. I think that their tagline is something like "play the era, not the rules" or something like that which wraps it all up really. In terms of theaters to use that don't end up in bogged-down trench warfare - the Isonzo or Italian front. Things were quite dynamic down there.

[f2k]

I was going to say I started writing a breakdown of eras and by the end of High Medieval it's already over a page long. It's probably best broken up and spread around the thread, perhaps with everyone's opening post being a bit about the era they are doing, the army they are doing and the rules and miniatures they will be using.

If I were to write about WWII... Oh, my... It would take several pages just to cover the basics of what happened, why, and where.

Keeping it short? Yeah, right...

[GomezAddams]

What about pointers though? As opposed to writing whopping long essays, just point people in the right direction.

Mura miniatures for example (hes on here, but I can't remember his user name), is a great starting point. It doesn't give you everything, but gives you a rough guide to various companies and things.

I think theres a few colonel marbles guides to historicals.

[sigur]

Indeed. So trying to explain everything wouldn't work and approaching it from a wargaming perspective would probably be the best. Something along these lines:

"World War One (1914-1918), also known as the Great War, was the first large-scale "modern" war of the 20th century. The major powers involved in the European theater were France, Great Britain, Italy and Russia (and the USA lateron) on one side and Germany and Austria-Hungary on the other. The conflict is best known for large-scale trench warfare and the ways of "industrialized" mass warfare along with the introductions of various new technologies on the battlefield such as airplanes and tanks."

These blurbs, kept as small as possible, sould be on top of a list of links to historical background, rulesets and miniatures manufacturers. They should give people a very rough idea of the conflict. It's not 100% historically correct but a rough overview.

On top of all there should be an introductionary paragraph mentioning the Whys of the thread and a paragraph on the ethics of historical wargaming. (there is a rather recent thread on this in this forums section we could take from).

[f2k]

What about pointers though? As opposed to writing whopping long essays, just point people in the right direction.

Mura miniatures for example (hes on here, but I can't remember his user name), is a great starting point. It doesn't give you everything, but gives you a rough guide to various companies and things.

I think theres a few colonel marbles guides to historicals.

Indeed. So trying to explain everything wouldn't work and approaching it from a wargaming perspective would probably be the best. Something along these lines:

"World War One (1914-1918), also known as the Great War, was the first large-scale "modern" war of the 20th century. The major powers involved in the European theater were France, Great Britain, Italy and Russia (and the USA lateron) on one side and Germany and Austria-Hungary on the other. The conflict is best known for large-scale trench warfare and the ways of "industrialized" mass warfare along with the introductions of various new technologies on the battlefield such as airplanes and tanks."

These blurbs, kept as small as possible, sould be on top of a list of links to historical background, rulesets and miniatures manufacturers. On top of all there should be an introductionary paragraph mentioning the Whys of the thread and a paragraph on the ethics of historical wargaming. (there is a rather recent thread on this in this forums section we could take from).

I suppose that depends on your definition of a pointer...

I gladly admit that I’ve been somewhat “damaged” in my thinking towards that after spending way too many years at university. Reading a five to ten page dissertation on a subject is what I would call a pointer. And then I’d start really digging into the available literature. Going from source to source I can easily get to fifty, or even hundred, pages before I start getting the feeling that I have a sort of shaky overview of the subject in question.

As such, the “blurb” on WWI above just about long enough to make me register that it’s there. But I still lack a lot of vital (in my opinion, anyway) information. What is this all about? Why should I care? Who took part? Why and where did they fight? What weapons and tactics did they use? Where and when were the major battles? Any particular units worth studying? Etc...

But then again, I’ve always been a very avid reader.

And thus we’ve come full circle and are back to my original question. Perhaps it’s just me who’s so much into the history behind the battles that I actually find researching units and equipment more interesting than painting and gaming.

Each to his own, of course...

[EmperorNorton]

@EmperorNorton: When you're completely new to historical wargaming (as I am really), I really suggest listening to the Meeples and Miniatures podcast. It's so darned inspiring that you'll end up wanting to play EVERYTHING historical. The presentation is calm, very British in a way, very informed and enthusiastic without being bothersome. The reviews are generally done in a positive light but that's more based on the fact that it's mostly things the guy who does the podcast likes rather than an uncritical mindset. The podcast slightly favors historical wargaming over sci-fi/fantasy and you won't hear about GW, PPP or any other big company. It's an excellent podcast with many fans.

I'll try listening to it, but I'm not really a fan of podcasts.
Maybe I've just listened to the wrong ones, which were mostly people waffling on and wasting my time instead of presenting information in an engaging manner.

Anyhow, as for WW1, I don't know much about models but those can be found pretty quickly. In terms of rulesets and apart from WH, there's Through the Mud and the Blood. It's a skirmish system for ww1 by Too Fat Lardies who usually champion a kind of rules design that goes for how you can create historically accurate situations and how you're then forced to make decisions and use tactics that in this situation historically would have been used as well instead of solutions based on the ruleset. I think that their tagline is something like "play the era, not the rules" or something like that which wraps it all up really. In terms of theaters to use that don't end up in bogged-down trench warfare - the Isonzo or Italian front. Things were quite dynamic down there.

I'll see if I can find out more about that.
I remember another game, "Where the Poppies grow" or something along those lines. They had a very impressive table at Salute last year, the coverage for which I saw when I was just reading about WW1 extensively.
Mainly I want some WW1 minis to paint, maybe to build a diorama. But I always like having a rulebook, just in case I get the chance to play. Never happens, but still.

I suppose that depends on your definition of a pointer...

I gladly admit that I’ve been somewhat “damaged” in my thinking towards that after spending way too many years at university. Reading a five to ten page dissertation on a subject is what I would call a pointer. And then I’d start really digging into the available literature. Going from source to source I can easily get to fifty, or even hundred, pages before I start getting the feeling that I have a sort of shaky overview of the subject in question.

As such, the “blurb” on WWI above just about long enough to make me register that it’s there. But I still lack a lot of vital (in my opinion, anyway) information. What is this all about? Why should I care? Who took part? Why and where did they fight? What weapons and tactics did they use? Where and when were the major battles? Any particular units worth studying? Etc...

But then again, I’ve always been a very avid reader.

And thus we’ve come full circle and are back to my original question. Perhaps it’s just me who’s so much into the history behind the battles that I actually find researching units and equipment more interesting than painting and gaming.

Each to his own, of course...

I have a degree in history myself and understand where you are coming from, but a short blurb like the one sigur posted would probably be better than a 10+ page essay that would turn more people away than it would encourage.
A list of suggested reading material would be just as helpful and a lot less work.

I hope, of course, that nobody really needs pointers about WW1 and WW2, as school should cover that.

[sigur]

@Emperor Norton: It's very nice to listen to while painting or when driving around.

@f2k: I absolutely agree of course. I love reading about history as well and all that but I think that such a thread would be most effective if it has a very, very short blurb on the era along with links that fill in most of the rest of the information. Otherwise the whole thing abould become a behemoth and not a quick overview. Of course it would be more than welcome if someone writes up an essay on the respective conflict but I think for the sake of presentation it should be seperated from the main post.

[f2k]

I have a degree in history myself and understand where you are coming from, but a short blurb like the one sigur posted would probably be better than a 10+ page essay that would turn more people away than it would encourage.
A list of suggested reading material would be just as helpful and a lot less work.

I hope, of course, that nobody really needs pointers about WW1 and WW2, as school should cover that.

You’re probably right... Too bad that that is what the world has come to...

Grumble...

Youngsters these days... Write a few thousand words and you’ll get slapped with tl:dr so fast you won’t even know where it was coming from...

Grumble...

Mumble...

Sigh...

To be honest, I really do feel sorry for the current “soundbite generation”. Anything that can’t be said in 10 seconds (or 120 characters) is promptly ignored. Heaven help us when they get old enough to take political office.

Anyway, that’s a very different debate.

As for school. My absolute favourite teacher was my history teacher. Unfortunately, back then history and religion was part of the same course so much of the time was spend learning about the bible as preparation for our confirmation. Not entirely wasted, mind you, as it did wonders turning me completely and irrevocably away from religion.
Beyond that we had a tiny bit on ancient history, of course a bit on Danish history and then... Well.. That was about it, really... And since history/religion was only taught until the confirmation in seventh grade, and no test was required whatsoever, it was a sadly neglected class. In fact, most of my classmates didn’t even bother to attend classes. Not that the teacher minded at all. As he said: if they couldn’t be bothered to attend class, then he couldn’t be bothered to teach them...

Most of what I know of history is what I read about myself. Did intend, at one point, to get a degree in history. But what are the job options? Going back to school to teach a class full of ungrateful brats like my history teacher had done? Thanks, but no thanks...

Anyway, I’ll try to be brief then... Briefer than this post, anyway...

@f2k: I absolutely agree of course. I love reading about history as well and all that but I think that such a thread would be most effective if it has a very, very short blurb on the era along with links that fill in most of the rest of the information. Otherwise the whole thing abould become a behemoth and not a quick overview. Of course it would be more than welcome if someone writes up an essay on the respective conflict but I think for the sake of presentation it should be seperated from the main post.

Not a bad idea at all. Maybe reserve the two or three first posts for a brief overview and then link to posts with more details further into the thread.


Anyway, went over what bitz’n’pices I had collected for Flames of War. Turns out I have enough to fully convert the HQ and anti-aircraft guns of the 653. Which, incidentally, are the two units containing all the interesting hardware. All I need is an Elephant so I can make a greenstuff cast of the top and rear hull which is need for the Bergepanzer Elefant conversion. I could sculpt them myself, of course, but making a cast is so much easier...

That might be the way to go. Still waiting for the book on the 503. though. And got Grey Wolf (late war Germans on the eastern front) on its way as well.

Must it be Germans? Of course not. But they do have the advantage that they were present at all the major fronts. So you can pretty much shuffle them from front to front with only small changes in the support available.

If you don’t care too much about historical accuracy and where the units would actually have been, that is...

[Codsticker]

Indeed. So trying to explain everything wouldn't work and approaching it from a wargaming perspective would probably be the best. Something along these lines:

"World War One (1914-1918), also known as the Great War, was the first large-scale "modern" war of the 20th century. The major powers involved in the European theater were France, Great Britain, Italy and Russia (and the USA lateron) on one side and Germany and Austria-Hungary on the other. The conflict is best known for large-scale trench warfare and the ways of "industrialized" mass warfare along with the introductions of various new technologies on the battlefield such as airplanes and tanks."

These blurbs, kept as small as possible, sould be on top of a list of links to historical background, rulesets and miniatures manufacturers. They should give people a very rough idea of the conflict. It's not 100% historically correct but a rough overview.

I think this is a good approach. The bulk of the post should be about which companies provide background information, produce minitures for the given period and who publishes rules sets all with handy links.