Confessions of a 6th ed Dark Elf player

[Bubble Ghost]

I last played in 6th ed. Tried to work myself up to give it another go in 7th, but got depressed about death stars and army creep and ended up with sticking with my newly adopted 40K. So I hoped 8th would be a new dawn. I have to admit I was a bit disappointed, but not for what seem to be the usual reasons - I like most of the rules, except for what seems to be their combined effect on unit sizes and variety.

Once, my wide, shallow units were considered unorthodox (I ran my Witch Elves 8 wide in 6th edtion, which caused double takes back then). Now I'm not sure they're large enough to even be worth taking. Quite apart from just plain disliking the visual of all these gigantic chunder-units - I think it makes each model seem inconsequential, which for me defeats the purpose of a 25-30mm game - all my units suddenly seemed too small to be worthwhile, and so my whole army felt obsolete. As a 4th ed Undead player I've had this in every single edition change, and so having it yet again was more than I could take for a game I already didn't like the look of.

But I've calmed down enough to give it another go, hoping that even if I turn out not to like it, a Warhammer I don't like might be better than no Warhammer. So I would appreciate any of your best informations on how I might form up the following and how I might expect it to perform:

• 28 speardudes (modelled into 4 ranks of 7)
• 10 crossbowmen
• A box of 16 as-yet unassembled spear/xbow dudes
• 45 corsairs (which I used to use as a unit of 20 and two units of 12)
• 18 Witch Elves
• 18 Black Guard
• 21 Executioners
• 10 cold one knights
• 15 Dark Riders
• 10 Shades
• Cauldron of Blood
• A bunch of characters, notably one on a pegasus

Sadly buying new stuff is a no-go - I bought all this in days of yore when I worked for GW, and it cost me about 50 quid for the lot. I can't really justify paying modern prices for this stuff, and even if I could, I have better things to spend the money on. So what I'm curious about is the viability of all that as it is. In particular, I'd really rather not have to use all the corsairs and all the dark riders together in those ridiculous, faceless giganto-units.

So is it possible to do that without hamstringing myself? And how? From skimming the rules about who can attack in melee, steadfast, LoS and disruption, it seems that smaller units have been not just nerfed, but left completely unable to perform any useful function whatsoever - which explains the homogenous-looking nature of the WFB armies at my club these days at least - so I'm at a bit of a loss how to be thinking about this.

[Echunia]

I think you've got quite a nice army there dude, without any addition needed. I haven't done any points or anything but this is how I would run the units:

28 spears add 2 from the pack and run 30 of them 5 wide and deep. You could go horde if you add all your spares but that's kind of boring (imo).

10 crossbows in 5*2 formation, really good add the 14 others from the box and you have 2 units of 12 6 wide, good shooting support

45 corsairs, hum well here I'm not sure, this is entirely up to the points level. But I would recommend 1 big unit of atleast 30. In bigger games you could run all 45 in one massive unit. Unfortunately I don't think the multiple smaller units of corsairs are very good in 8th.

18 Witch elves, not super sure but you could run them 6*3 or in multiple single file units as annoying blocking troops and flankers.

18 Black guard, awesome unit, The formation will have to vary though. Sometimes you want them super wide to avoid templates and sometimes you want them deeper. Most of the time I would put them as wide as they need to go to maximize attacks.

21 Executioners, probably the least viable unit in the list, they could word as 7*3 with a BSB with ASF banner.

10 Cold ones, 5*2 really good cav unit

15 dark riders, 3 units of 5 as redirectors, warmachine hunters and so on. Still really good.

10 Shades, I'd run these in one unit of 10 scouting and shooting as always.

Cauldron could be BSB which is really good.

Basically I think you have a good selection of models to make a really good competitive list. So there's no need to hamstring yourself imo.

Edit:
Made a quick list:
30 warriors FC shields
12 X-bows
30 Corsairs FC add hand wpn. Frenzy banner
5 Dark riders
5 Dark riders
18 Black guard FC
10 Cold one knights FC
10 Shades
Cauldron BSB
Lvl 4 with +1 spell or smthn else
Dreadlord on peg with reverse ward and stubborn crown
That's 2400ish points and a pretty competitive list!

[Lord Dan]

Made a quick list:
30 warriors FC shields
12 X-bows
30 Corsairs FC add hand wpn. Frenzy banner
5 Dark riders
5 Dark riders
18 Black guard FC
10 Cold one knights FC
10 Shades
Cauldron BSB
Lvl 4 with +1 spell or smthn else
Dreadlord on peg with reverse ward and stubborn crown
That's 2400ish points and a pretty competitive list!

That looks like a great list to me, though I might make the following tweaks:

Split the shades into two units of 5
Drop shields from the warriors, give the crossbowmen shields
If you have points, pick up another 8 crossbowmen and split them into two units of 10
Give the lv. 4 the sacrificial dagger

[jtrowell]

I disagree about the shields, while it can be sometime useful to make them as cheap as possible, espacially when used as fodder for the dagger, the shield will be useful when you use them against most other core units, especially tarpits with only S3 attacks.

About the wich elves, I sometimes use them in small or medium units, usually 5x1 (cheapest) or 7x2 (optimal number of attacks again 5 wide 20mm units).

Other times I use 7x3 or 7x4 when I want a larger unit (I don't like horde for them, they already have so many attacks by themselves, hordes are better for units with low number of high strength attacks like executioners), but 6x3 can be used too if you want a smaller frontage.

Sometimes I deploy my WE behind other units (often corsairs deployed 7-wide too) to protect them against shooting, and use them as a second wave attack.

[jtrowell]

I disagree about the shields, while it can be sometime useful to make them as cheap as possible, espacially when used as fodder for the dagger, the shield will be useful when you use them against most other core units, especially tarpits with only S3 attacks.

About the wich elves, I sometimes use them in small or medium units, usually 5x1 (cheapest) or 7x2 (optimal number of attacks again 5 wide 20mm units).

Other times I use 7x3 or 7x4 when I want a larger unit (I don't like horde for them, they already have so many attacks by themselves, hordes are better for units with low number of high strength attacks like executioners), but 6x3 can be used too if you want a smaller frontage.

Sometimes I deploy my WE behind other units (often corsairs deployed 7-wide too) to protect them against shooting, and use them as a second wave attack.

[hazmiter]

Tmarichards has said the same thing about witch elves, darts of 6-8.
Dagger is a must, free power dice mean your opponent will save for the big spells, lore of shadow makes it better, as they wait for okkams, pit of shades or pendulum.
Power of darkness is a boon when you have very few power dice.
Corsairs in 10 blocks with handbows make good speed bumps, or flankers.
5x2, but I hoard them w pair hw, sea serpent banner, hydra banner bsb and a couldron buff. Very killy.
Shields on repeater xbows is a good idea, parry is a good thing.
Give dark riders xbows, as the free 12" move, combined with the fact they can move and shoot hitting on 5, 6s is also a blessing... Good to harry the opponents flanks.
Spears, go for deep formation, and have pearl of infinite bleakness on sorceress, panic no more.

[Bubble Ghost]

Thanks folks, very helpful.

One thing I'm completely open to doing is mixing together the Witch Elf and Executioner models in the same unit, as a sort of "temple of Khaine" unit. I know it goes against the letter of the background but it's in the spirit of it I think. That would pump up the size of the "Executioner" unit.

Incidentally, what you do mean by "darts" of Witch Elves? That term wasn't around when I last looked at WFB tactics boards...

Also, I forgot to mention I have a couple of bolt throwers. Are those any good these days?

[bad dice]

It means small singel file units of 7 to 12 that run up to the enemy untis. Engage them in combat and use the high volume of high ws hatred poison attacks to decrease the numbers enough, so that other units in the army can break them in one turn later on.

This works well cause its not that many points and gives you a change to keep your main combat units more or les in tact and grands more drops during deployment.
Also if in range of a cauldren that grands them killing blow its just insane.

[hazmiter]

Reaper bolt throwers are viable, just need to select targets appropriately, as a single shot can decimate ranks, and multi shot does it better, but high armour save units, single shot....

[Bubble Ghost]

It means small singel file units of 7 to 12 that run up to the enemy untis. Engage them in combat and use the high volume of high ws hatred poison attacks to decrease the numbers enough, so that other units in the army can break them in one turn later on.

This works well cause its not that many points and gives you a change to keep your main combat units more or les in tact and grands more drops during deployment.
Also if in range of a cauldren that grands them killing blow its just insane.

Yeah, what was confusing me is, do you mean single file or single rank? Because single file would be more dart-shaped, but also really kooky, so I'm not sure which you meant.

[hazmiter]

Single rank, 6 or 7 wide.

[TheOneHawk]

Or, alternatively, throw all the witch elves together and mindrazor them for probably the most broken unit/buff combo in the entire game. Give them +1A from the cauldron and they have 4 re-rolling to hit, poison, very high strength attacks each. Not many units will survive a round of that.

[hazmiter]

Or throw in hellebron and a hoard of witchelves with mindrazor, hydra banner, and banner of hag graef and watch things melt from rerolling str 8 elves.... With 5 attacks from front rank with cauldron buff..... now that's broken......

[Lord Dan]

Or throw in hellebron and a hoard of witchelves with mindrazor, hydra banner, and banner of hag graef and watch things melt from rerolling str 8 elves.... With 5 attacks from front rank with cauldron buff..... now that's broken......

Not that I disagree with you on the damage output potential, however what person in their right mind would even get into combat with that unit? They have no saves of any kind. Shoot them down and put 800+ points in your pocket.

[Capt._Jaelinek]

Reaper bolt throwers are viable, just need to select targets appropriately, as a single shot can decimate ranks, and multi shot does it better, but high armour save units, single shot....

If you look at the statistics the multi-shot is better. Even against high T monsters or good armor saves. The reason is your chance to hit increases dramatically. If you miss half the time you can't cause many wounds. S4 armor piercing is still good.

Also penetration through ranks is spotty at best as you have to kill the model in front to continue causing damage. The multi-shot is the only redeeming quality of the bolt thrower. I would take them in pairs in larger point battles for some long range shooting, but they won't likely kill their points unless you get lucky. Target big monsters and expensive per model units for maximum effect.

[hazmiter]

Lord Dan, that's what the 5++ ward buff is for.

[Bubble Ghost]

I would take them in pairs in larger point battles for some long range shooting, but they won't likely kill their points unless you get lucky.

Surely they don't need to "kill their points"? I may not have played 8th, but I've played older WFBs and other wargames enough to know that if they knock a rank off an enemy unit and that rank lets you beat that unit in combat, then they were probably worth taking. Doesn't matter how many points the models the bolt throwers actually killed were. To be honest, I have my suspicions that this sort of principle is less relevant in 8th edition than it used to be, seeing as there seems to be less emphasis on small units, flanking etc. and more on raw stats, but it looks like it's still there to some extent.

[Echunia]

You have a point, but as you pointed out, units in 8th are a lot bigger. As such the repeaters don't do as much as they did. They might not be optimal but I personally think that they are viable if you go for a shooting heavy list. If you have enough x-bowmen and shades the added weight will make a difference. The days of having 2 boltthrowers as your main shooting battery is probably over though.

[Capt._Jaelinek]

You have a point, but as you pointed out, units in 8th are a lot bigger. As such the repeaters don't do as much as they did. They might not be optimal but I personally think that they are viable if you go for a shooting heavy list. If you have enough x-bowmen and shades the added weight will make a difference. The days of having 2 boltthrowers as your main shooting battery is probably over though.

Totally agree. They give you more shooting in turn 1, probably worthless by turn 3.

[hazmiter]

Turn 3 combats break out most times, hydra or 2 helps.
But your list, shooting against vampire counts, try stopping necrospam......