Strategic Arms Limitation Talks?? No mega Nuclear spells

[TsukeFox]

So had a warhammer weekend, our gaming group is 2 vets & 3 new players. One of the new players used a life toad-dwellered off generals & lord casters turn 1 in two different games. Victory Lizardman. Normally the Lizardman player used Light.

We vets have silently agreed to S.A.L.T.- I do not take 13th & he does not take MindRazer with dark elves.

We found that the games are more involved/tactical now that magic phase does not completely win games on its own with 1 spell.

Aside from tournies- is any other gaming communities not really using dwellers, MindRazer, 13th, chosen/knight bus star, and whatever other war crime spells ?

[IcedCrow]

I find if my army is more than a mega bus unit that even when the 13th goes off on me (which is about once every two or three games against skaven) that it at most takes out one of my key units, but that I have other units on the table and the game is not lost.

I find that those people that have their armies composed of a massive unit where their characters are hiding are highlighting a giant weakness... that being if that unit runs off the table or is 13th spelled, they will often lose the game as they have nothing else to go by.

In that regard, we have not had to comp out any of the magic phase.

[Urgat]

I'm like IcedCrow to be honest. People can't really argue that there's overly killy spells in the little Waaaagh so hopefully I won't look like I'm defending my turf, but imho the best defense against the dread 6th spells () is in the list-making.

[Maoriboy007]

The problem I have with that argument is say that If both you and your opponant have two key units each , and he can remove one of your key units with a single spell, then he has two key units to your one and gained a more than significant advantage. The limited resource you have can really work against you with this kind of math, especially if your opponant tends to be more resistant to these spells or better able to take advantage of them, it creates the same kind of army imbalances that people hated in 7th.

[Mercules]

I third that notion. I play MMU for a reason and that is because people like dropping templates on my head. Loosing 1 out of 3 units instead of half my Horde I was counting on doesn't hurt me as much.

[TsukeFox]

I find if my army is more than a mega bus unit that even when the 13th goes off on me (which is about once every two or three games against skaven) that it at most takes out one of my key units, but that I have other units on the table and the game is not lost.

I find that those people that have their armies composed of a massive unit where their characters are hiding are highlighting a giant weakness... that being if that unit runs off the table or is 13th spelled, they will often lose the game as they have nothing else to go by.

In that regard, we have not had to comp out any of the magic phase.

Well our group does not use blocks like that.
I am not saying we have issues with character assassination from spells-just saying the fantasy game is better without having to resort to the OP BRB Lores. The 8th edition book Lores are balanced-no thanks to that slag Matt ward.

[Urgat]

The problem I have with that argument is say that If both you and your opponant have two key units each , and he can remove one of your key units with a single spell, then he has two key units to your one and gained a more than significant advantage. The limited resource you have can really work against you with this kind of math, especially if your opponant tends to be more resistant to these spells or better able to take advantage of them, it creates the same kind of army imbalances that people hated in 7th.

That's why you take half a dozen key units, not two
Well of course that doesn't mesh well with the current mindset of going with deathstars... but that's the whole point of those spells, limiting them... ah well

Well our group does not use blocks like that.
I am not saying we have issues with character assassination from spells-just saying the fantasy game is better without having to resort to the OP BRB Lores. The 8th edition book Lores are balanced-no thanks to that slag Matt ward.

God knows I've done my own share of Ward-bashing during 7th ed, but he's done a great job with the 8th ed BRB, and those spells, they have a reason to exist (see just before that quote). Unless something goes horribly wrong (that would be all my units squabbling in a nice line when a wizard come at my flank on his flying carpet while his hands glow purple), I see no spell that could make me lose just by being cast successfully.

[Morkash]

The comp in Austria (and Germany as well, I think) usually either allows "Look Out, Sir!" rolls for Dwellers, 13th et al., or restrict casting to 4 dice, or both. Restricting IF on spells with a casting value of 14+ is also used sometimes.

Personally I like the 4 dice solution the most, as it generates a totally different attitude towards magic. Even played against a Daemon player without any magic at all!

Then again, units are also limited to 40-50 models and/or 400-450 points maximum as well ... which again changes the attitude towards magic and units. Ogre Magic suddenly becomes very efficient, while Life isn't used all that often without massive Deathstars running around.

Necessary edit: I don't want to start another topic about comp and its (dis)advantages, but I personally prefer playing comped over playing without limits. 3000 points and Grand Armies just allows many harsh setups. And yes, it hurts my Ogre soul that my units are restricted to 400 points.

[ColShaw]

That's why you take half a dozen key units, not two
Well of course that doesn't mesh well with the current mindset of going with deathstars... but that's the whole point of those spells, limiting them... ah well

I'd be interested in how people can take half a dozen generals, or Battle Standard bearers, whose loss is often catastrophic to an army and can't really be prevented from uber-spells.

[Urgat]

I'd be interested in how people can take half a dozen generals, or Battle Standard bearers, whose loss is often catastrophic to an army and can't really be prevented from uber-spells.

I can't help the BSB, but I play goblins, I take almost no magic items, so I can afford to put big bosses wherever I want or need. Apart from ogres and chaos, everybody should be able to put two or three heroes (in my case four or five) in key positions in case the general goes down. Try it some day, save a couple hundred points on your magic gear, maybe you'll see things in a different light. If the loss of the BSB or the general was catastrophic to me, I wouldn't win a game, as they die to the first marauder glaring at them...

[Wesser]

Only Mindrazor has ever ruined a game for me. Its the only spell that destroy whole units after all.

Around my turf its buff spells not damage spells that wins games. Dwellers I usually let slide....so what if 25 skeletons die. Ill raise up some more. So what if 25 state troops die. I dont expect them to do anything. Maybe its cuz I never take units which if lost will cost me the game... at least not unless I got a plan for protecting them. Like Blood Knights wil Flag and MR2....

[Maoriboy007]

That's why you take half a dozen key units, not two .

The math still applies , he removes one and you are still a vital unit down compared to your opponant, and the limitation of points and unit types tends to keep those units to a small but vital number. Generally our group mainly tries to keep away from such spells they tend to arbitrarily end the game.

[Urgat]

The math still applies , he removes one and you are still a vital unit down compared to your opponant, and the limitation of points and unit types tends to keep those units to a small but vital number. Generally our group mainly tries to keep away from such spells they tend to arbitrarily end the game.

Well true... but unless you play exactly the same lists, what do you expect? And I didn't say vital units My opinion is you should have no vital units at all. Everything in my army can be sacrificed (well on its own. If I lose my two shamans, or all my heavy hitters and am left with just the rabble, sure, it's gonna stink worse than the squig pen ).

[Phazael]

Kill spells are there to counter deathstars. If you want to watch to giant deathstars slap together for 4 turns like a pair of sumo wrestlers (or as my wife and I call it, Friday night marital relations....), have at it. I personally like being able to snipe a slaan out of a TG deathstar that is otherwise buffed to unassailable levels or other similar brokeness that uber spells counter. Being MSU and deploying intelligently pretty much counters uber death spells and there is no excuse for not being able to MSU in an Orc and Goblin army, because the basic guys are so inexpensive.

[Slashattack]

I don't really see any problems with the mega-spells currently. Yes they are good, but not game breaking in most cases. In the cases where a mega-spell has won a game, normally mindrazor is the culprit or Dreaded Thirteenth.

From my experience most of the spells don't live up to their reputation. Dwellers Below is good but against strength four and above it loses its impact; Purple Sun is too random to be reliable enough to use, it has sucked up one of my Supreme Sorceress last time I tried it; Final Transmutation is nice like Dwellers but still only removes on average one third of a unit; Infernal Gateway is just a slightly bigger than normal magic missile most of time.

Augments, hexes and normal damage spells change the game more than the mega-spells normally in my local meta-game. Spells like Miasma, Withering, Enfeebling Foe, Wildform, Enchanted Blades, Flaming Swords, Flesh to Stone, Earthsblood, Timewarp, Speed of Light, Flame Cage, Comet of Cassandora and Foot of Gork are what people use over the mega-spells normally.

Flame Cage is my particular favourite because it forces the opponent to lose a movement phase normally when placed on the right target, unless they want to take enough hits that could kill half their unit just for moving. Foot of Gork just hurts like hell, and with a bit of luck is absolutely deadly.

Slash

[bluemage]

I agree with Icecrow, your "veterans" need to stop putting all their eggs in one basket and feelin cheated when something happens to that basket of eggs.

[Sexiest_hero]

I usually drop a 6th spell because I prefer to do my killing up close, I don't like miscasting, and I feel cheap buffs are better. I'm beastmen so I'm blessed with casters and heroes that don't need units, and units that don't need heroes. Cheap heroes to buff units can work wonders and keep you from death starring.

[Maoriboy007]

Its more like both having a basket with 6 eggs each in it. Then your opponant forces you to lose an egg, advantage your opponant. All things being equal it doesnt matter if you increase the number of eggs , if you have equal resourses with your opponant of he can lower your resources then he gains an advantage. The kicker is , not all armies are equal, and not all the resources are equal, and as stated it doesn't need to be a vital unit if it takes a general BSB or wizard with it.

[Maoriboy007]

Kill spells are there to counter deathstars.

I'd accept this a bit more if they didn't seem to kill everything else just as well if not better. True deathstars tend to be fairly resistant to these spells anyway.

If you want to watch to giant deathstars slap together for 4 turns like a pair of sumo wrestlers (or as my wife and I call it, Friday night marital relations....),.

[Mercules]

I'd be interested in how people can take half a dozen generals, or Battle Standard bearers, whose loss is often catastrophic to an army and can't really be prevented from uber-spells.

Against stat testing spells, they have better stats than normal so often are not going missing. Against template spells they get Look Out Sir! rolls and so often are not going missing. If loosing your general causing an instant game loss (as opposed to the whiny, "I forfeit because things didn't go my way." instant loss) then your army needs some rethinking. It makes it more difficult, but not "catastrophic".