Strategic Arms Limitation Talks?? No mega Nuclear spells

[gauly_13]

The way I've always seen it fluff wise, yes the elves spend a few hundred years mastering their magic, I've always felt the humans laughed at them a bit for taking so damn long! I guess I see elves as patient and willing to take their time, humans just want to get stuck in and blow stuff up.

If I was writing the rules to reflect this fluff, I'd make HE take a ld test when they rolled IF/miscast. If they pass, the spell is cast as normal, if they fail then follow the normal IF/miscast rules. Empire wizards on the other hand should have 'double 1 = miscast' rule. Point cost each properly and I think it'd fit well!

. . . Sorry about off topic :P

[gauly_13]

Double post shenanigans

[Duke Ramulots]

Double post shenanigans

Oh, -15 internetz

[Lord Inquisitor]

The way I've always seen it fluff wise, yes the elves spend a few hundred years mastering their magic, I've always felt the humans laughed at them a bit for taking so damn long! I guess I see elves as patient and willing to take their time, humans just want to get stuck in and blow stuff up.

If I was writing the rules to reflect this fluff, I'd make HE take a ld test when they rolled IF/miscast. If they pass, the spell is cast as normal, if they fail then follow the normal IF/miscast rules. Empire wizards on the other hand should have 'double 1 = miscast' rule. Point cost each properly and I think it'd fit well!

. . . Sorry about off topic :P

Heh, I was contemplating something very similar in a recent thread for Slaan to represent their patience.

[TsukeFox]

Yeah, I've never agreed to the full range being available to empire wizards. Makes sense for high elves but seems wrong for empire.

Then again they are suppose to have schools for each branch of magic so by the fluff it's also correct...

So wrong and yet so right...

But why cannot the slaann take High magic? Do they suddenly forget?

[Malorian]

But why cannot the slaann take High magic? Do they suddenly forget?

I would not argue with the slann having access to some army lores as well.

In fact it would be a wise idea for GW as it would make LM players buy up more of the books of other races.

[DaemonReign]

Same could be said for Tzeentch wizards.. Well, at least the Daemon kind.

[TsukeFox]

I would not argue with the slann having access to some army lores as well.

In fact it would be a wise idea for GW as it would make LM players buy up more of the books of other races.

Why not ?
Lizards had high in 4/5th ?
Man those were the days-Mage duel cards!

[DaemonReign]

I could be wrong TsukeFox but I think you're misinterpreting what Malorian was saying.
He seems to be saying that he wouldn't have anything against Lizardmen Slaans having some kind of access to high Magic.

... and I chimed in that: Yeah that'd make sense, kinda-like disciples of Tzeentch (or his direct manifestations at any rate) arguably should have access to just about every Lore that ever was or ever will be.

Between you and me though, I think it's 'asking for a bit much' in terms of pure background orientation. A wetted finger in the wind tells me both Slaan and Tzeentch wizards are more likely to lose versatility rather than gaining more of it.

[Drasanil]

Yeah, I've never agreed to the full range being available to empire wizards. Makes sense for high elves but seems wrong for empire.

I'm fine with the empire having access to every lore, provided the wizard models actually match their lore/college, none of that count as hofflenosh the colleges are quite distinct from one and other. Kind of miffed dark elves don't have to access to every lore though, dhar is all the winds... so why can dark elves use all the winds?

[Urgat]

The way I've always seen it fluff wise, yes the elves spend a few hundred years mastering their magic, I've always felt the humans laughed at them a bit for taking so damn long! I guess I see elves as patient and willing to take their time, humans just want to get stuck in and blow stuff up.

Fluff-wise, the elves are supposed to be able to master all the winds, while the human wizards spend their lives trying to master a single one. The way you see it is strangely twisted
-also, you do know you could just delete the double post? I don't get why people do that "double post sorry!" thing instead of just deleting the double post :/

[gauly_13]

I'm using a phone, not a pc, my options are more limited

I still think elves would spend longer learning one lore than the average empire wizard. Hence empire wizards are more prone to buggering it up and being turned into a boot full of tongues :P

[Enigmatik1]

I think that as the books are updated we will see less and less BRB lores being used.
If we look at the evidence: We have 4 new armies since 8th was released and in 3 of them the primary caster has to either use the army lore or a "lesser" lore (OK Firebelly for example).
All of the remaining books that are to be done will all have race specific lores which will hopefully be as balanced as the recent army lores have been.


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Will it really matter though? Only Undead and Greenskins are forced to have their highest level caster use their army book lore, so whether or not this matters is dependent on the power of the lore and any other forced restrictions (like TK only having Light and Death as additional choices). Like LI said, as long as people have the option of slapping the obligatory choices of Life or Shadow on their L4s instead of their weaker AB lore, it isn't going to matter much. It only matters for Ogres, as I see it, because their casters aren't cheap as I recall.

If I could run Light or Death on a L4 instead of Nehekhara without fielding Arkhan, I would without question pretty much every game.

[jtrowell]

To kill in CC: step1- roll to hit. step2- roll to wound. step 3- attempt to save

To kill with an "autokill" spell: step 1 - roll winds of magic. step 2- attempt to cast spell. step 3- roll stat test

Looks to me that there are just as many chances to fail to kill on one of these nuke spells as there are in CC and with CC you dont run the risk of blowing yourself up.

Looks to me theyre

You forget the step(s) where the attacking unit must first come in base contact, wich may take several turn, and might not be possible depending on the unit(s) positions.

While it's true that some of the killer spells have a relatively short range, moving then casting and true line of sight with no effet from cover (even magic missiles are not affected by cover as long as you have the smallest line of sigth, and direct damage or vortex spells doesn't even need line of sight) means that most of the time you will have nothing that you can do to protect your characters, short of deploying your general or level 4 somewhere so far from the battleline that you're already giving the advantage to your opponent.

Once again, It's ok to have powerful spells able to cripple whole unit, even better if thos spells scale in power with the target unit size, like doing on hit/check for each model, as this helps keeping deatstar in check (no it doesn't completly remove them, but it make them a risk, adding a pertinent choice during army list creation) *but* it is not ok where thos already very powerful spells are also doubling as character sniping spells.

Do you find mindrazor good ? What if for the same spell you also got to increase your T in the same way, making you both with absolute offence *and* defense ?
Having a spell being so effetive that you would want to cast it even on 6 die almost any turn in the game (as long as there are opponents in range of course) is not good gameplay, it's a no-brainer.

Having a spell that you would *sometimes* cast on 6 dices because the situations is optimal, sometimes just try to cast on minimal value, and other times ignore because the situation calls for other spells is a good balanced spell.

[DaemonReign]

Having a spell that you would *sometimes* cast on 6 dices because the situations is optimal, sometimes just try to cast on minimal value, and other times ignore because the situation calls for other spells is a good balanced spell.

Which, in my experience, is pretty much exactly how things work now. Different spells fitting into different phases of the game. Sure you may gamble on casting something damage-doing at the start of the game, but once you have lots of stuff locked in combats you're not gonna put to priority to trying to blast stuff that isn't causing you trouble for the time being.

And even so, I find it's also much dependant on attitude. Sometimes it's fun to gamble on 6-dicing something 'grand', to me there's no shame in that (it backfires like half the times anyway), and sometimes you (or at least I) feel more inclined to appropriate the magic phase differently.

Well.. Everyone's got their own opinion. To some extent I can understand that if you're a seasoned player, at a tourney for example, and you end up coming second to some snot-nosed kid who just happened to (1) roll irresistable on the boosted Sun and (2) rolled a '7' on the miscast table and (3) rolled maximum range and better than average damage with none of your chars passing their I-check.. then sure, I can understand even the best of us, at times, are a bit of poor losers and we join up with our friends and *grumble grumble* a little bit.

Anything in Warhammer is *broken* when it actually works. Really. And personally I see no reason why saves and LookOutSir should work against everything all the time. That'd be boring, if anything, IMO.

[Havock]

Ah yes, one of my favorite results as in 7th. Much chaos was wrought from this particular Miscast. Having someone burn a scroll on their own turn because they miscast one of their spells and don't have enough dice to dispel your newly cast spell was pure glee.

My favourite was against lizzies:
He miscasts, I cast a spel, I pick nurgle spell #5 (ie. -1S and T each turn), plomp down a counter on the engine of the gods. He can't dispel.
Come my magic phase, he gets another token, the crew and priest dies and the steggie becomes stupid.

[Haravikk]

The real solution to hordes should be flank disruption taking away steadfast and not being able to reform in combat. Without that mega spells is all the system has.

I don't see what everybody's fixation with Disruption taking away Steadfast is; as this would hurt mid-range troops fighting in sensible formations too by completely negating the point of having Steadfast in the first place. We'd just end up with bare-minimum disruption units floating around rendering infantry blocks ineffective once more.

The problem units are stupid hordes (ridiculously cheap models like skavenslaves) which would be better nullified by making sure they can't get access to high Leadership, such as eliminating Inspiring Presence and/or Stand Your Ground when Disrupted, as they'll break fairly easily after that. The other problem units are death-stars (incredibly expensive units, usually of very effective models taken in far larger numbers than they should be), but these would be partly nullified by partial victory points, as it'd be a lot less easy to deny all the points for a unit by ensuring at least one survivor, and fully nullified by army book changes.

Really all the big magic spells should need to do is provide Stone Thrower like damage for armies that don't have it (or give them another option) as this can hurt big packed groups fairly nicely already. Currently the mega spells are a poor solution to a fairly simple problem.

[Malorian]

I don't see what everybody's fixation with Disruption taking away Steadfast is; as this would hurt mid-range troops fighting in sensible formations too by completely negating the point of having Steadfast in the first place. We'd just end up with bare-minimum disruption units floating around rendering infantry blocks ineffective once more.

The problem units are stupid hordes (ridiculously cheap models like skavenslaves) which would be better nullified by making sure they can't get access to high Leadership, such as eliminating Inspiring Presence and/or Stand Your Ground when Disrupted, as they'll break fairly easily after that. The other problem units are death-stars (incredibly expensive units, usually of very effective models taken in far larger numbers than they should be), but these would be partly nullified by partial victory points, as it'd be a lot less easy to deny all the points for a unit by ensuring at least one survivor, and fully nullified by army book changes.

Well the bare minimum is actually a good size. Remember you need a rank bonus, not a rank.

I don't think we are on the same page about steadfast. Steadfast is there to stop things like monsters and heavy cav from just blowing through blocks in one go, and it would still be doing that.

Taking away the general's leadership doesn't help higher leadership models that horde up and giving half points only partly helps the problem.

I seriously don't see why you think disrupting flanks = no steadfast is a bad idea. People will be forced to take more (and thus smaller) units and the whole art of the movement phase will be back in the game.

[Duke Ramulots]

I seriously don't see why you think disrupting flanks = no steadfast is a bad idea. People will be forced to take more (and thus smaller) units and the whole art of the movement phase will be back in the game.

Just not getting your rank bonus is enough to make me protect my flanks, but to think that ten guys in the side of my 50 strong unit would all of the sudden negate that they still outnumber the opposition is rediculous.

[Urgat]

Well the bare minimum is actually a good size. Remember you need a rank bonus, not a rank.

I don't think we are on the same page about steadfast. Steadfast is there to stop things like monsters and heavy cav from just blowing through blocks in one go, and it would still be doing that.

Taking away the general's leadership doesn't help higher leadership models that horde up and giving half points only partly helps the problem.

I seriously don't see why you think disrupting flanks = no steadfast is a bad idea. People will be forced to take more (and thus smaller) units and the whole art of the movement phase will be back in the game.

Oh, what a brilliant idea, why don't we turn that topic into the twentieth "steadfast should be disrupted by flanking!" That's right, we need another one of those, come on, it's been more than a week since the last one died!