Strategic Arms Limitation Talks?? No mega Nuclear spells

[Warhammer Madman]

Though I agree that the super death mega spells were a heavy handed response to the rudimentary death stars the design team undoubtedly used in play testing, I believe they were undermined by the 7th ed books still in use. consider that in our meta there are two 6th ed books and two 8th ed books (so no ridiculous death star combo's). simply this has forced my dwarfs and my friends wood elves into MSU as big units of Dawi die to a huge variety of things and the only spell i now fear is pit of shades (as it removes my 350pts lord choice without me rolling any dice). the GW designers (yet again ) have failed to take into account the ingenuity of the community in getting around threats! I put it to you that it is units that get around these spells that are the real problem as they force you to think of a unit to deal with them and in so doing making you vulnerable to the spells that are meant to prevent such units.

the real failing of the spells themselves is in there blanket effects, if they had built in modifiers for monsters (say +2I?) or if they only inflicted one wound.

[Duke Ramulots]

Hmm. Taking the lore, getting the spell, being in range, having enough dice, rolling the casting value, not being dispelled...not all of those are equally difficult but it seems to me that there's a lot more than just an ini roll with magic..

Dont go makin my point again, it'll get em all fired up.

[Malorian]

That would mean that a wizard with the wanted lore at 40pts more would still be a good choice. Ergo, they're underpriced, right?

It's pretty hard to put a price on a game winning spell.

(Note that I'm still standing by the statement that combat buffs and hexs win more games than nuke spells.)

[Memnos]

You're absolutely right about the Hexes/buff spells. I used to run MSU Beastmen and being able to throw out 3-4 Miasmas a turn won many a-games. I don't think I've ever won a game based on the throwing out any nuke spell.

[Duke Ramulots]

It's pretty hard to put a price on a game winning spell.

(Note that I'm still standing by the statement that combat buffs and hexs win more games that nuke spells.)

I have to agree(warning anecdotal evidence incoming), I have won games on a single cast of er we go more times than I can count(so at least three times) and the times its been coupled with itchy nuisance da boyz will even go first and just delete whole armies when that gets going.

On the opposite side of the spectrum Ive never had that great of success with dwellers other than one time killing a large unit of GW dwarf warriors before they destroyed my men at arms.

[DaemonReign]

Yeah and I've lost games against Dwarves where I managed to Purple Sun every singe one of them and that's partly why I haven't taken part in this thread for the last 10 pages or so.

It's just looking as though the peeps dismissing these (in my opinion) nice and fluffy spells are treating their 'saves' etcetera as some kind of universal human right.

Why doesn't Dwellers or P-Sun allow any saves? Why doesn't it cause wounds?!

- Because those spells don't hurt you.. Purple Sun is a vacuum cleaner and for all we know the models sucked up are having a great time where-ever they end up, it's just they're not in the game anymore on that we can all agree. With Dweller's they are probably not having a great time, but it's the same principle.

Lately there's been arguments in this thread with the logical conclusion that as long as model is expensive enough it should be immune to any damaging effect that doesn't test against its most favorable stats.
Sheesh.. Yeah I'd love that rule for my Greater Daemons. You Shoot at me with a cannon!? Well go ahead, I have WeaponSkill 10 no go suck it!.

Double-u T F people.

[Duke Ramulots]

- With Dweller's they are probably not having a great time, but it's the same principle.

I laughed pretty hard at this, thanks for starting my day off right.

[Urgat]

It's pretty hard to put a price on a game winning spell.

(Note that I'm still standing by the statement that combat buffs and hexs win more games than nuke spells.)

I was kidding Malorian

[Lord Inquisitor]

Hmm. Taking the lore, getting the spell, being in range, having enough dice, rolling the casting value, not being dispelled...not all of those are equally difficult but it seems to me that there's a lot more than just an ini roll with magic. Anyway, the point is rather that there are some combat units that can delete Trolls, Plaguebearers, STanks (or anything else)...and there are some spells that can delete Trolls [insert same list]. Sure, wards are an exception but sometimes magic (dis)allows armour or regeneration, sometimes combat does, and having run Knights w/ BotEF for the last two years as well as STank and Greatswords, I can safely say that in my neck of the woods it happens decidedly more often in combat. Which doesn't mean that it isn't reversed somewhere else of course, I just don't think one or the other must be preeminent a priori.

Well, we've been through this before for several pages. The comparison needs to be made between similar spells (e.g. skullstorm & purple sun, pit of shades & the Maw) as this addresses all additional variables nicely. Still, if I have it in my head to cast purple sun, I am likely to do it with a respectable range sooner or later if I am persistent.

Your point is not lost on me but there's very little else that ignores toughness, armour, regen, magic res and wards all at the same time. That's a special little combination.

(Note that I'm still standing by the statement that combat buffs and hexs win more games than nuke spells.)

Absolutely true. I rater a boosted soulblight as far more useful and dangerous in general than a purple sun. However, most of these tend to act in a very predictable and scalar manner. Wildform is a great spell, but +1S and +1T are only going to enhance what's already there. What bothers me about nuke spells is not so much their raw power, but the sheer level of imbalance relative to anything else.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Well, we've been through this before for several pages·

Didn't stop us with cannon or steadfast.

Comparing apples and oranges is perfectly legit. It's what our brain does each and every second. How'd you know that combat was different from magic otherwise?

[Maoriboy007]

Hmm. Taking the lore, getting the spell, being in range, having enough dice, rolling the casting value, not being dispelled...not all of those are equally difficult but it seems to me that there's a lot more than just an ini roll with magic. Anyway, the point is rather that there are some combat units that can delete Trolls, Plaguebearers, STanks (or anything else)...and there are some spells that can delete Trolls [insert same list]. Sure, wards are an exception but sometimes magic (dis)allows armour or regeneration, .

Lord Inquisitor said it as well but theres no problem with the difficulty with the mechanics of the spell, theiy correllate perfectly with other spells like hexes buffs and vortexes like skullstorm, its at the point where the spells say ""remove entire model regardless of wounds with no saves of any kind allowed"that it diverges from to norm into the realm of stupid. Spells like the Skullstorm and Maw caost the same yet allow saves and wards. I don't have so much problem ignoring armour saves as a benfit of magic overcoming purely phisical defenses, but ingnoring all saves , tougness and wounds seems a bit much.
As much as unit deleting combat units go, they are somwhat of a separate problem that might also need adressing, however generally they still obey laws of allowing saves and causing a collection of hits and wounds first, they have to at least earn it.

Yeah and I've lost games against Dwarves where I managed to Purple Sun every singe one of them and that's partly why I haven't taken part in this thread for the last 10 pages or so..

succesfully cast? on the actual units? They would have to be some of the luckiest dwarves ever. Although if you only hit the core and got wiped by the long range war machines then yeah it could happen.

It's just looking as though the peeps dismissing these (in my opinion) nice and fluffy spells are treating their 'saves' etcetera as some kind of universal human right.
Why doesn't Dwellers or P-Sun allow any saves? Why doesn't it cause wounds?!
- Because those spells don't hurt you.. Purple Sun is a vacuum cleaner and for all we know the models sucked up are having a great time where-ever they end up, it's just they're not in the game anymore on that we can all agree. With Dweller's they are probably not having a great time, but it's the same principle.

There is no reason fluff cn't be managed for game balance reasons. Poison is a good example, constructs undead and demons are all vulnerable to poison because we came up withsome jammy excuse for gameplay, no reason we couldn't here. Hell , no reason we can't change the fluff either, half the time its obviously come off the top of someones head anyway.

Lately there's been arguments in this thread with the logical conclusion that as long as model is expensive enough it should be immune to any damaging effect that doesn't test against its most favorable stats.
Sheesh.. Yeah I'd love that rule for my Greater Daemons. You Shoot at me with a cannon!? Well go ahead, I have WeaponSkill 10 no go suck it!.
Double-u T F people.

ER...a cannon does allow saves and causes multiple wounds however, if these spells did damage in the same way as cannons that would be perfectly acceptable. Nor does it target a specfic weak stat, toughness and wounds generally reflect a models cost , cannons could probably hit a little bit softer (or less often) but general mechanics at least bear some resemblance to reason.

Didn't stop us with cannon or steadfast.

Comparing apples and oranges is perfectly legit. It's what our brain does each and every second. How'd you know that combat was different from magic otherwise?

The last comparisen between magic and combat wasn't a particularly good one. Generally combat attacks cause actual wounds and allow some sort of save. Killing blow is the exception, and requires the attacker to at least roll a 6. BTW if KB caused multiple wounds , I wouldn't be upset.

[DaemonReign]

succesfully cast? on the actual units? They would have to be some of the luckiest dwarves ever. Although if you only hit the core and got wiped by the long range war machines then yeah it could happen.

Oh yeah, successfully cast boosted rolling maximum range from one flank to the other, auto-killing all but one Warmachine (I think there were 4 in total) and naturally decimating virtually every one of his units. He did roll a bit better than average for those I-checks, of course (specifically for his Characters).
- But the Miscast promptly removed my casting wizard, of course.
- A couple of combat rounds of grinding against his (still largely steadfast) main line and my army still fell in on itself.

Anecdotal of course. There's been other instances where the P-Sun has been failed (not reaching casting value, or misifiring on itself etcetera) but that's not what I meant.

Suppose I see stuff like this because the minimum game size in our group (on average) is about 4k. But hey, frankly if that's the case I'd rather just use that 'comp' then to try and play Jervis with existing mechanics.

There is no reason fluff cn't be managed for game balance reasons.

Right. But it seems most of us agree that the Augments/Hexes - at the end of the day - actually have a bigger impact on the game compared to these 'wonky' nuke-spells. So the 'Why' eludes me!

cannons could probably hit a little bit softer (or less often) but general mechanics at least bear some resemblance to reason.

What do you mean by 'at least'? The 'über-spells' - if we look at their background description - have perfectly reasonable reasons for not allowing Magic Resistance or Saves etcetera. As I described before: They don't actually hurt anyone in the strict meaning of the word. In fact, I think it's a beautifull design-move that they really dared going to the 'logical conclusion' of that background with respect to these spells - if the Purple Sun was described as a cloud of mustard gas floating down the field (for example) I would absolutely deem it reasonable for it allow saves or cause mutliple wounds or whatever. But now..? No, not so much I'm afriad. In fact, as I've said before I thouroughly enjoy these spells as I think they create a flavorfull contrast to the other spells in the game. And just as my example with the Dwarves was anecdotal this last bit is just personal opinion of course (but don't forget my Plaguebearers are a lot more susceptible to the P-Sun than Dwarves!).

edit
'Poison Attacks' is treated as a 'bundle' for everything between strict 'poisons' to 'acids' and as such 'work on everything'. If there was a special clause saying that you needed to be mortal, or if the Poison Heading was divided into different Categories (i.e. 'Holy Water' vs Daemons/Undead, 'Poisons' vs Mortals, 'Acids' vs Armour) I'd definately call that an improvement of course, but again - a lot of the simplicity would be lost in doing so.

KB causing Multiple Wounds? *shruggs shoulders* Yeah if that was RAW I'd have no problem with it.
/edit

With regards to Cannons I guess I would have prefered to see them 'scatter' on the bounce by perhaps a D3 because Character-sniping isn't very 'realistic' - I would have preferred that over the general increase to cost they seem to be getting.. But hey, this is nitpicking and there's something to be said for the rules being 'simple' and streamlined and all that..

[Maoriboy007]

Oh yeah, successfully cast boosted rolling maximum range from one flank to the other, auto-killing all but one Warmachine (I think there were 4 in total) and naturally decimating virtually every one of his units. He did roll a bit better than average for those I-checks, of course (specifically for his Characters). .

But you did get to decimate his army in one go by the sounds of it, had you already all but lost then? It can happen, a VC army can struggle on to win without a general, it ain't easy but it can happen.

Right. But it seems most of us agree that the Augments/Hexes - at the end of the day - actually have a bigger impact on the game compared to these 'wonky' nuke-spells. So the 'Why' eludes me!.

The reason augments and hexes have more effect is that there are simply more of them in the lists, there are at least three in death alone. There are more augments in the lists, and generally you have less chance to autolose to an augment he'll still have to actually win the combat and break you (although it'll certainly help the opponant get a leg up) , so you'll probably let it through more often than a spell that wipes out the same unit without it getting a chance to hit back, a single uberspell can do the same as two or three powerful hexes.

What do you mean by 'at least'? The 'über-spells' - if we look at their background description - have perfectly reasonable reasons for not allowing Magic Resistance or Saves etcetera. As I described before: They don't actually hurt anyone in the strict meaning of the word. In fact, I think it's a beautifull design-move that they really dared going to the 'logical conclusion' of that background with respect to these spells - if the Purple Sun was described as a cloud of mustard gas floating down the field (for example) I would absolutely deem it reasonable for it allow saves or cause mutliple wounds or whatever. But now..? No, not so much I'm afriad.

I'm afraid I have to disagree, magic resistance (and for that matter ward saves) are supposed to protect you from magic. There is no more or less reason magic resistance should protect you from an immolating ball of fire than a crystallising one. Why is it called magic resistance if you can't resist magic?In fact there are more spell you cant resist. There are many ways you can reason out the whys and hows in the interest of game balance, "Because the fluff says/implies" is not a good enough reason not to IMO , especially when there are planty of examples that allow saves elsewhere (the Great Maw , Bad Moon etc)

In fact, as I've said before I thouroughly enjoy these spells as I think they create a flavorfull contrast to the other spells in the game.

Fair enough you are entitled to your opinion, personally I find them way too heavy handed and the fact they can end a game too esaily puts me off them. If they allowed Ward saves and caused multiple wounds instead would that really ruin the game or the spells themselves? Personally it would probably be more of a balance we could all live with, they'd still be nasty and in your face but bearable.

'Poison Attacks' is treated as a 'bundle' for everything between strict 'poisons' to 'acids' and as such 'work on everything'. If there was a special clause saying that you needed to be mortal, or if the Poison Heading was divided into different Categories (i.e. 'Holy Water' vs Daemons/Undead, 'Poisons' vs Mortals, 'Acids' vs Armour) I'd definately call that an improvement of course, but again - a lot of the simplicity would be lost in doing so..

So why isn't MAgic resistance treated the same by protecting you from all forms of magic? Its an example of where rule overrides the fluff, you cant tell me that a ghoul soaks its claws in holy water before it fights demons, or that you can poison Tomb King constructs made out of rock but we get to shrug and accept it for game balance anyway, the same should apply for ward saves and stupid uberspells.

[/QUOTE]

[Haravikk]

(Note that I'm still standing by the statement that combat buffs and hexs win more games than nuke spells.)

I absolutely agree with this, they're just generally more reliable to use, but the problem with the mega spells is that the damage they can do is extreme, with little to no protection once the spell off (or if it's forced through on 6 dice). Sure a player could just as easily spend all day failing to cast the spell, but when they do get it off it can just as easily ruin the game, and at the same time doesn't truly solve the problem that it's supposed to when the two worst hordes (Skaven slaves and Chosen) both have average or better stats for all characteristic tests

[DaemonReign]

@ Haravikk - So losing a game equates to the game being ruined? As far as I'm concerned all matters of losing stings one's pride equally. With the minority of spells that, on occassion, can tilt the game single-handedly you can at least say that your opponant got lucky. In that sense, being 'outplayed' is perhaps even more game-ruining?
Oh well, just musing really..

The reason augments and hexes have more effect is that there are simply more of them in the lists ... a single uberspell can do the same as two or three powerful hexes.

Mindrazored Witch-Elves? Timewarped Bloodletters?
It's not as simple as you make it out to be.

Why is it called magic resistance if you can't resist magic?

MR doesn't protect against the effects of certain 'killy' spells for the same exact reason it doesn't do jack against Augments or Hexes. Actually in the case of Hexes I agree it wouldn't have been wrong to implement MR in some way so there I guess we agree.
GW haven't been totally consistant with their application of MR and protection against certain spells. When it comes to Purple Sun and Dwellers I flat out love that you get no saves, but for Final Transformation it makes less sense all of a sudden.

If they allowed Ward saves and caused multiple wounds instead would that really ruin the game or the spells themselves? Personally it would probably be more of a balance we could all live with, they'd still be nasty and in your face but bearable.

*shoulder shrugg* Fine. Re-write the fluff of these spells, recalibrate their casting values.. Maybe in 9th Edition ey? I guess it will come as no surprice at this point I'd basically just feel like they had been watered down.

So why isn't Magic resistance treated the same by protecting you from all forms of magic? Its an example of where rule overrides the fluff, you cant tell me that a ghoul soaks its claws in holy water before it fights demons, or that you can poison Tomb King constructs made out of rock but we get to shrug and accept it for game balance anyway, the same should apply for ward saves and stupid uberspells.

Since the rules for Magic Resistance, as I said above, arn't completely consistant there's always going to be some way to find flaws in any defense of them. Basically, if we look at the Purple Sun as an example, the reason MR doesn't protect against it is simply that the 'Vortex' isn't the spell (the spell brings about the Vortex, but by the time it engulfs the enemy the 'spell' has already ended) - and it doesn't do damage but instead it works as a giant vacuum-cleaner. Same thing with Dweller's - those mystical elemental limbs that start dragging people 'down below' isn't the spell, again: the actual spells simply 'summon' them.

But I can agree with you it certainly wouldn't have been hard to accept that Magic Resistance worked against all spell types and all spells. That would probably mean that units with MR got a 'bundled' save against Hexes (so MR2 would give you a single 5+ chance of negating any Hex), and furthermore this would naturally have been applied to Augments also. So again, with some tweaks to casting values it would have been perfectly reasonable - and with some further tweaking on 'background descriptions' we could have been rid of everything but strict Direct Damage and Magic Missiles too.
It would mean a couple of extra lines of text in the rulebook - where-as you'd get to stack your Wardsave with MR against 'damage' while you'd use your 'unmodified Magic Resistance' on a unit-by-unit basis against Augments and Hexes. In a parallel universe maybe the game is played that way, and hey (again) perhaps in 9th Edition!

Same thing with Poison really. For simplicity's sake Poison Attacks let's you 'autowound' on a 6 ToHit. I agree that Undead/Daemons should be immune to arguably 'viral' poisons, while it would have been a nice addition to have stuff like 'Holy Water' or 'Acids' specifically defined as Special Rules on the respective profiles of units that today just have 'Poisoned Attacks'. No argument there really. I'm actually not much of a fan of 'streamlining' in that I don't mind at all if the rules are difficult to keep track of (as long as the 'mechanics' mirror the fluff as much as possible).

And in the case of your 'stupid über-spells' I can't help feeling GW did a pretty good job. Where you see 'game-ruining' and 'boring' I see 'free-spirited' and 'fun/epic'. It's just opinion, of course, and I would imagine to a large extent conditioned by personal experience. Like I've said before, my group plays the kind of games where even Dwarfs can soak a perfect Purple Sun and where our accumulated experience simply tells us that 6-dicing stuff almost never turns out to be worth the gamble.

Well.. Can I just end off with saying I hope I'm not irritating you over here. Just trying to share some of my private 'Peace with the Stupid über-spells', as it were.

[Haravikk]

@ Haravikk - So losing a game equates to the game being ruined?

So calling the mega spells potentially game-ruining automatically equates to me being simply sore about losing? You might want to try that one again; when a spell has the potential to wipe out two or three units in one go then something is pretty wrong with it; something is especially wrong with it when there is no defence whatsoever against it due to how easy it can be to ensure you have the spell, and then simply throw 6-dice at it. It's not an effective strategy by any means, but when it works it essentially annihilates Dwarfs or Ogres and for no good reason, since the spell is supposed to discourage hordes. Dweller's Below arguably does it better, but at the same time it's a spell that can arbitrarily wipe out half of pretty much any frontline unit with no real defence against it, since these spells are (for no sane reason whatsoever) allow no form of save at all.

It's not that I've had too many bad experiences with these spells, but the potential to be fighting a losing battle from turn 1 is not what these spells were supposedly intended for, yet no-one at GW seems to have realised that their horde-prevention tools are actually better at spoiling the fun of a game than balancing out hordes, since all the worst hordes don't care about the mega spells. It was not merely the wrong solution for the problem it was meant to solve (since it didn't), but also the wrong thing for the magic phase in general. Vortexes such as those in the Orcs & Goblins and Tomb Kings book fit very well and, while not fun exactly to be hit by, don't ruin the fun of a game.

[DaemonReign]

I think the reasons for these spells not allowing any saves are perfectly reasonable, as I've tried to account for numerous times now.

Anyway, didn't mean to offend.. It's just I don't think these spells are game-ruining, and I don't care what their purpose supposedly is nor how well they achieve this purpose. I think the reason why I don't have a problem with these spells (amongst other things in the game) is the simple fact that I for some reason have an attitude toward the game that is more in tune with the Designers.

That's not the same as saying 'I'm right' or anything like that. It's simply fortunate for me, I guess, because it lets me enjoy some aspects of the game that others (like you appearantly) really dislikes.

Didn't mean to offend. Thought I made that clear by saying I was just musing. But if we are to cut to the chase then 'No' - I don't share the sentiment that losing the game on a single dice roll is ruining anything, nor does it bother me that some things don't allow saves.

[boli]

The biggest thing which annoys me about the mega nuke spells is the phrase "every model in the unit" that changes from loosing a few of a unit - similar to a round of bow fire even concentrated bowfire; to a significant chunk of the unit. Those spells scale significantly even if their casting value never changes but other spells do not.

example:

Urran's Thunderbolt cast on 12+ D6 S6 hits against a unit
Flames of the phoenix cast on 11+ ALL models in a unit S3 hit - remains till dispelled increasing in strength every turn.

Against ant T3 (or lower) unit the FoTP devastate the unit... and requires dispelling (reducing the magical dice next magic phase) otherwise it gets worse... the other unless you are aiming at a monster does nothgin for the unit.

with the unit numbers scaling up significantly one spell can destroy more and more of its target... simpley as there is more models. the other... stays the same.

[Soundwave]

Yeah wizards can irk the game slightly ,we play games without them at times and its rather refreshing and your armys are fleshier obviously! No good for tomb kings or vamps.

[Lord Inquisitor]

I've been playing some games with the new Empire and I've been having some fun with those lovely rulebook lores like Life and Shadow that I can't normally play with using my other armies (at least not on a level 4). I'm telling you, play with Lore of the Great Maw for a while and Life and Shadow feel like magic without the brakes on.

With this thread in mind, I've been trying to see how much mileage out of a level 4 of Shadow and a level 4 of Life. Enfeebling Foe + Dwellers is a flat out horrific combination (I'm aware of dual Slaan lists that do similar). So far two games and so far pretty much outright wins by sniping the opponent's Level 4 and horrific damage. The first game I almost got the Enfeebling Foe + Dwellers combo off but sadly my Shadow wizard Lord cast Enfeebling with IF and blew himself up (therefore ending the spell) but any other result on the miscast table would have resulted in my opponent's entire tomb guard unit dying on a 2+ with no saves from the ensuing dwellers. As it was I did cast dwellers and kill a third of his tomb guard and his level 4, undoubtedly winning me the game. Game two, cast Enfeebling Foe reducing a unit of chosen with BSB and Level 4 down to Strength 2, then Dwellered 2/3 of the unit away, plus the level 4 died, essentially giving me massive superiority in the magic phase and neutering a critical unit.

I want to take this list to a tournament and see how well it does, because so far it's been working pretty much as good in practice as it looks on paper. Dwellers is disgusting.