Strategic Arms Limitation Talks?? No mega Nuclear spells

[Malorian]

What items are you using to pull this off? (Should be hard to be forcing through two spells.)

Why aren't they scrolling dwellers?

[Bodysnatcher]

I've been playing some games with the new Empire and I've been having some fun with those lovely rulebook lores like Life and Shadow that I can't normally play with using my other armies (at least not on a level 4). I'm telling you, play with Lore of the Great Maw for a while and Life and Shadow feel like magic without the brakes on.

With this thread in mind, I've been trying to see how much mileage out of a level 4 of Shadow and a level 4 of Life. Enfeebling Foe + Dwellers is a flat out horrific combination (I'm aware of dual Slaan lists that do similar). So far two games and so far pretty much outright wins by sniping the opponent's Level 4 and horrific damage. The first game I almost got the Enfeebling Foe + Dwellers combo off but sadly my Shadow wizard Lord cast Enfeebling with IF and blew himself up (therefore ending the spell) but any other result on the miscast table would have resulted in my opponent's entire tomb guard unit dying on a 2+ with no saves from the ensuing dwellers. As it was I did cast dwellers and kill a third of his tomb guard and his level 4, undoubtedly winning me the game. Game two, cast Enfeebling Foe reducing a unit of chosen with BSB and Level 4 down to Strength 2, then Dwellered 2/3 of the unit away, plus the level 4 died, essentially giving me massive superiority in the magic phase and neutering a critical unit.

I want to take this list to a tournament and see how well it does, because so far it's been working pretty much as good in practice as it looks on paper. Dwellers is disgusting.

Enfeebling foe and dwellers is my favourite combo. Very rare that I get it off but it makes people cry when I do. I also find the simple threat of it means people will go all out to stop the Enfeeble which means the other magic gets more of an outing.

[Lord Inquisitor]

I need to burn their dispel scroll first of course - this needs careful timing and won't work turn 1 - but I have a set of items that allow me to push through the second spell. The nice thing about the combo is that you are likely to also get a second trick, melkoth's + pit, which is also vicious and you can set up a two pronged attack if either of the debuffs is dispelled.

[Haravikk]

I think the reasons for these spells not allowing any saves are perfectly reasonable, as I've tried to account for numerous times now.

I'm not so sure; why ignore Ward Saves, and more importantly, Magic Resistance? Armour saves are semi-understandable, though for countering hordes it makes no sense to have none at all instead of simply a fixed modifier, as hordes rarely have better than Heavy Armour, and those that do have better do so at huge cost in points.

Anyway, didn't mean to offend.. It's just I don't think these spells are game-ruining

You didn't offend, but I think maybe you've misunderstood what I meant by game ruining; I still enjoy Warhammer games, 8th edition more than previous editions, and I don't typically play in competitive settings, so I rarely have trouble with mega spells as most casual players don't bother with them. But it still doesn't change the fact that they can have a disproportionately devastating result, particularly to certain armies, and completely out of keeping with what they're to do.

This is a thread about whether mega spells should be removed/nerfed etc. after all, which is primarily a discussion of the fact that they're far more powerful than they should have been, as evidenced by the fact that no army book since has had spells as damaging.

[TsukeFox]

I'm not so sure; why ignore Ward Saves, and more importantly, Magic Resistance? Armour saves are semi-understandable, though for countering hordes it makes no sense to have none at all instead of simply a fixed modifier, as hordes rarely have better than Heavy Armour, and those that do have better do so at huge cost in points.


You didn't offend, but I think maybe you've misunderstood what I meant by game ruining; I still enjoy Warhammer games, 8th edition more than previous editions, and I don't typically play in competitive settings, so I rarely have trouble with mega spells as most casual players don't bother with them. But it still doesn't change the fact that they can have a disproportionately devastating result, particularly to certain armies, and completely out of keeping with what they're to do.

This is a thread about whether mega spells should be removed/nerfed etc. after all, which is primarily a discussion of the fact that they're far more powerful than they should have been, as evidenced by the fact that no army book since has had spells as damaging.

They ignored all saves due to warriors with easy access to 3+ward saves to characters an R&F. HE have Phoenix guard with +4 wards and item combos to make their wizard immune to everything. DE have the pendant. Those are the big players that brought about the need for no saves, but one would like to believe they will correct that in the next Warriors book and elf books when it comes out. Ha those books will most likely come out before the WE book-leaving the "worst army" with the only access to multiple 3+ saves.
I wonder how the scales of the game will tip then.

But ya the nuke spells should get beefed to just doing D3 wounds & D6 wounds for the powered up version. Dunno.
Amazed this thread has gone on for so long

[Sheena Easton]

Am I the only one reading those complaining about Purple Sun and/or Dwellers and wondering how their opponents manage to get these spells on their Level 4's - and them be able to cast them safely and in such a way as to obliterate the bulk of the posters army (no doubt said army is deployed in a nice line with all the "important" characters and units bunched together) - in EVERY game?

[Malorian]

I need to burn their dispel scroll first of course - this needs careful timing and won't work turn 1 - but I have a set of items that allow me to push through the second spell. The nice thing about the combo is that you are likely to also get a second trick, melkoth's + pit, which is also vicious and you can set up a two pronged attack if either of the debuffs is dispelled.

You need a lot of dice though to pull off a 2 pronged attack. With the 7 average dice how are you pulling this all off?

(This is why I was wondering if you were using the power stone, power scroll, or something else.)

In your area are you also seeing combat round 2 like around here?

[Rudra34]

@Malorian. With a dual slann list it's not too difficult. If you have each of them getting an extra dice for every cast, then you are significantly increasing the ease at which combos like this can be cast (and how difficult they are to dispel).

Frankly I'd vote to outlaw double-slann before I'd outlaw mega spells

[Malorian]

@Malorian. With a dual slann list it's not too difficult. If you have each of them getting an extra dice for every cast, then you are significantly increasing the ease at which combos like this can be cast (and how difficult they are to dispel).

Frankly I'd vote to outlaw double-slann before I'd outlaw mega spells

"I've been playing some games with the new Empire and I've been having some fun with those lovely rulebook lores like Life and Shadow that I can't normally play with using my other armies (at least not on a level 4)."

He was talking about Empire.


If we do look at lizardmen, double slann is VERY expensive, but I could then see how it would be easier to pull off.

[Maoriboy007]

I think the reasons for these spells not allowing any saves are perfectly reasonable, as I've tried to account for numerous times now.

AS far as I can tell the your main points on that view seem to be that they neuter deathstars, an opinion which is hotly contested as most true deathstars are actually resistant and it just compounds the superiority of deathstars in this edition IMO.
The other seems to be "Because the fluff says so" which I disagree with, quite apart from the fact fluff tends to have nothing to do with game balance, fluff can be read and translated into gameplay almost to your whim (hense how you can poison rocks , dead bodies and bones in the game). If anything , from a fluff point of view there is no more reason a model with the protection of an amulet , his gods or resistance to magic should be any safer being bathed in flames by a wizard than from a crystallising magical sphere really.

Anyway, didn't mean to offend.. It's just I don't think these spells are game-ruining,.

Fair enough, you are as entitled to your opinion as we are to ours. Fairer to say though that these spells aren't all that constructive to the game IMO, they don't need to be removed altogether, just tweaked a little.

and I don't care what their purpose supposedly is nor how well they achieve this purpose.

Well, if you don't care then why are you arguing? Seriously though, maybe you are just lucky enough to play armies that are fairly resistant to these spells, or you don't see them often enough for it to matter. House rule or sfter gaming environments often hold back in this area and can make it seem like they aren't a problem. But honestly you can focus on these spells and do pretty well in the right environment.

I think the reason why I don't have a problem with these spells (amongst other things in the game) is the simple fact that I for some reason have an attitude toward the game that is more in tune with the Designers.

Considering the latest armybook lores, it seems fair to assume the designers realised these spells were something of a mistake, they at least tend to do wounds rather than outright killing models and allow ward saves.

That's not the same as saying 'I'm right' or anything like that. It's simply fortunate for me, I guess, because it lets me enjoy some aspects of the game that others (like you appearantly) really dislikes.

and to be honest its hard to argue with that, you have every right to enjoy the game. But how much less would you enjoy the game if these spells did allow ward saves and caused (multiple) wounds , thats still pretty nasty but I could live with that and you would still have a spell that wrecks face if you want. It just seems like more of a middle ground to me and not unreasonable for both sides of the equation.

Didn't mean to offend. Thought I made that clear by saying I was just musing. But if we are to cut to the chase then 'No' - I don't share the sentiment that losing the game on a single dice roll is ruining anything, nor does it bother me that some things don't allow saves.

Like I said , I've lost games where there really wasn't a lot I could do, I didn't feel sore at the actual loss, more that I didn't and couldn't have anything to do with it, and my opponant can generally back me up on this, I don't mind if its a single game in the balance tipping point roll, but an outright wreck you game winning roll? That I have an issue with.

Am I the only one reading those complaining about Purple Sun and/or Dwellers and wondering how their opponents manage to get these spells on their Level 4's -

The duplicate spell rule.

and them be able to cast them safely and in such a way as to obliterate the bulk of the posters army (no doubt said army is deployed in a nice line with all the "important" characters and units bunched together) - in EVERY game?

Flying and / or wizards are common enough to get into a position a bank shot across several units with Psun on any angle they like , that is if you can't do it safely from your lines, dwellers shades and transmutation are just pick and hit. And it doesn't need to be all units and/or characters the caster just picks the most important one to remove (except sun which can do both).

[Lord Inquisitor]

You need a lot of dice though to pull off a 2 pronged attack. With the 7 average dice how are you pulling this all off?

(This is why I was wondering if you were using the power stone, power scroll, or something else.)

In your area are you also seeing combat round 2 like around here?

A forbidden rod, a power stone, a hurricanum, 6 channels.

Playing Empire, I was hanging back and trying not to commit to combat too early, especially with a bit of Melkoth's early on turn 2 combat can be avoided and if it can't I've got Mindrazor and Flesh to Stone and plenty of other tricks up my sleeve.

Like I said, need a trial by fire in a tournament to see whether I can pull it off reliably but double-level-4 is cheaper for empire and pretty solid.

Merely an observation anyway. Seems to me since the cannon and über spell threads my games have been dominated by mindrazors and dwellers and cannons killing every monster in sight more than ever! Then again with my lists built around cannons and life/shadow level 4s perhaps that's a self fulfilling prophecy.

[Memnos]

As an aside on the Magic Resistance thing:

I think that Magic Resistance should allow you to... Well... Resist magic. Anything that tries to affect the Magic Resisted target is affected.

Here's how I'd play it:

Against spells that cause wounds, use the current rule.

Against spells that require a test, add 1 to the characteristic for every point of MR.

Against Hexes and spells that require no test, reduce the effect by 1 per magic resistance. So MR 1 against a 3 point Miasma results in 2 points. Against an 11-12 Gated unit, however, only one model would survive. Probably the general or BSB if they're in the unit.

[Gromdal]

The mega spells and deathstars are the major problems of 8th edition and both could be easily fixed.
FAQ the chosen star not to get the 3+ ward, change to spells to allow wards and limit some character sniping.


To bad it wont get done.

[Haravikk]

They ignored all saves due to warriors with easy access to 3+ward saves

And this required spells that hurt other units more in order to counteract it? They could have fixed the Chosenstar with a sensible FAQ, and to counteract Phoenix Guard abuse they could have just had the sniper spells ignore ward saves instead of the big full-unit or template spells, as Phoenix Guard are already paying for their 4+ Ward. Besides which, Chosen are one of the units least affected Purple Sun, Pit of Shades and Dwellers as they have high Strength and Initiative. 1/3rd losses for Strength can still hurt them, but not as much as generally every other infantry unit in the game.

Am I the only one reading those complaining about Purple Sun and/or Dwellers and wondering how their opponents manage to get these spells on their Level 4's - and them be able to cast them safely

The chances of rolling a double of a level 4 are pretty good, plus you don't have to use the level 4 to it. Take a level 2 as well but roll the level 4 first, if they get the spell you want on the level 2 then just swap for the signature spell instead leaving the level 2 to roll a duplicate and pick what it wants. Slap the level 2 on a flying carpet or something, fly over, 6-dice the spell and watch the characteristic tests roll. There are a few easier ways to do it as well as you don't have to get it off in the first turn, but it's often best as units are usually close-ish when deployed. Risking a level 2 wizard is fine if it can pretty reliably wipe out far more points than it costs, and if deployment doesn't leave you the gap you need you still have a perfectly capable wizard as backup to the main one.

(no doubt said army is deployed in a nice line with all the "important" characters and units bunched together) - in EVERY game?

Units can't spread out too far if they're supposed to be supporting one another, and if the army is a fairly elite one then fewer units means a necessarily closer deployment, as the alternative is an intentionally weaker battle line. Consider Dwarfs which work best when their fairly small number of units can use a table edge to cover one flank and dedicated units to cover the other flank. Sure that's begging for a vortex spell to some degree, but one that wounds 2/3rds of all their models and ignores all saves including Magic Resistance?

When you also factor in the average of Purple Sun as being, what, 18"? Then with a small or large template it's not hard to get a lot of models, spread out or not. Plus, if the units are spread out then it only makes it easier for a flying wizard to hit what they want by squeezing into the gaps. I use a minimum gap of 2" already to make sure nothing fits in between, but when a unit is 4-8" across an 18" attack from the side can still cover a lot.

[Malorian]

A forbidden rod, a power stone, a hurricanum, 6 channels.

Yup, that would do the trick

(I just did a video on the fact that more people should use the forbidden rod. Glad to see it being used to deadly effect.)

[Sheena Easton]

So if your opponent invests so many points in magic and items / monsters to ensure a certain Level 4 has Purple Sun in EVERY game why can those for whom this is a problem for not counter it (at least to some degree) when making lists / deploying / playing?

Ultimately I fail to see why Purple Sun / Dwellers are such a problem, especially if it relies on your opponent being so obvious about it... though this does give your opponent the psychological advantage with you reacting to them so perhaps you should find something equally nasty to worry them or ensure your list can laugh at a boosted Purple Sun and / or turn the offending caster into a red smear on the tabletop.

[IcedCrow]

I have long learned to just live with those spells. However I understand how they cause irritation because it's brain dead and doesn't really rely on much "skill" or "tactics"... just good dice rolling.

[Chaoslord Faros The Dark]

So if your opponent invests so many points in magic and items / monsters to ensure a certain Level 4 has Purple Sun in EVERY game why can those for whom this is a problem for not counter it (at least to some degree) when making lists / deploying / playing?

Ultimately I fail to see why Purple Sun / Dwellers are such a problem, especially if it relies on your opponent being so obvious about it... though this does give your opponent the psychological advantage with you reacting to them so perhaps you should find something equally nasty to worry them or ensure your list can laugh at a boosted Purple Sun and / or turn the offending caster into a red smear on the tabletop.

I agree with you, its like when people complain about gateway as most of the time its a expensive missle.

[Jezbot]

They ignored all saves due to warriors with easy access to 3+ward saves to characters an R&F. HE have Phoenix guard with +4 wards and item combos to make their wizard immune to everything. DE have the pendant. Those are the big players that brought about the need for no saves, but one would like to believe they will correct that in the next Warriors book and elf books when it comes out.

They're not hordes, but elite troops with exceptional defensive capability. The idea that very powerful spells would be much better against very large numbers of mediocre troops, but far less potent against units like the above is not something to avoid, but something the rules should embrace. Having magical resistance magically resist spells, even very powerful ones, is basically what it's there for.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

I think that Magic Resistance should allow you to... Well... Resist magic. Anything that tries to affect the Magic Resisted target is affected.

Sweet. Honestly, that would be a very elegant and neat rule.