Horus Heresy series - Why is Chaos presented as the more reasonable side?

[nedius]

Hi all.

I've been reading the Horus Heresy avidly. However, I'm curious.

In almost every instance I can think of, the primarchs who support the forces of Chaos are depicted as more reasonable and rational than the servants of the Empire. Ok, except Angron. He had Khorne written all over him.

The deamons that appear to them always appear open, honest and reasonable. I know they are supposed to appear so, but usually they seem to be actually telling the truth - That the Emperor has lied about the nature of the warp, that the Emperor would probably dispose of the Primarchs and SMs once the galaxy was won and hand control back to mortal humanity.

The servants of the Emperor always seem like a bunch of idiots. Russ, who is easily manipulated and blindly destroys a misguided but loyal legion, driving them to really rebel; The Lion, who has the empathy and people management skills of your average spoon; Dorn, who can't stop worrying about things - ever (You're a primarch, 'man' up, for Emperor's sake...). Guiliman seems ok, but a bit superior. The rest, easily suckered in by all and any plot against them. Even the Emperor seems to have only the vaguest clue as to what he is doing - all powerful, but in serious need of a vist from Super Nanny.

Only in Fulgrim did I feel any sort of sympathy for a character being manipulated into descending to Chaos. For everyone else, it's actually been written as if it was entirely justified. Not that the character is made to feel justified, blind to what we, the reader, can see is the truth, but that they REALLY are justified.

Add to that that all the Primarchs seem a bit numpty-ish, what ever side they are on. The architects of the Heresy actually seem to be Kor Phaeron and Erebus, with Lorgar (and in turn Horus et al) manipulated very successfully by them, effectively pulling the wool over the eyes over the eyes of the supposed greatest minds in all humanity save the Emperor himself. Who seems to not have been to aware of what was going on anyway...

Only in First Heretic did I feel real sympathy for the loyalists primarchs (during the massacre), and perhaps in the Raven Guard audio book.

So, my question is this; am I alone in finding it hard to be sympathetic with the 'good guys'?

[Menthak]

not at all, my knowledge of the HH series is poor, not gonna lie, but I've always found it difficult to feel for the good guys, because they're not 'good' as such, just another faction, to be honest everything in 40k is very grey

[stormblade]

Horus doesn't seem all that sympathetic in 'False Gods' or 'Galaxy in Flames', and neither do his followers.

[Theocracity]

Honestly, they don't really have to be very sympathetic. Destroying a galactic civilization seems like a much better idea when it's defenders are, in your view, foolish or jerks. But just because they're unsympathetic or unlikable doesn't mean that they or the cause they fight for is wrong.

No matter how honest or truthful the demons are, they want to destroy reality. No matter how cruel or unthinking the Loyalist Primarchs are, they serve humanity. That's part of the irony inherent in the 40K universe.

[Holy_Combat]

The traitors have been manipulated for decades prior to the Heresy. The Word Bearers sent agents to guide the legions to rebel when the Emperor had the Ultramarines destroy their "perfect" city becasue they worshipped the Emperor. Eberus was everywhere prior to the Heresy implanting treason. Read the First Heretic.

[MikeInfinitum]

The fact that chaos is presented as reasonable helps the story IMHO. You can understand why this war erupted better than just "some of them turned evil overnight".

The only issues I have are with Horus not taking his doubts up with the Emperor before deciding upon treason, and some of the renegade primarchs having blatantly obvious personality flaws waiting for chaos to corrupt ( oh and the blatantly evil names as well!)

[narrativium]

We haven't yet seen the Chaos side. There've been a lot of good reasons to turn against the Emperor, but not a lot of good reasons to turn to Chaos. Lots of traitors, very few heretics - so far.

[BrainFireBob]

Curze is one of the reasonable ones? Fulgrim's decadent torture on-stage that summoned daemonettes was reasonable?

Seriously, dude, have you read all the HH books?

Lorgar is obsessed with being submissive to a dominant power to bask in its reflected glory.

Fulgrim gets rather perverse before turning.

Curze is plain crazy. Batman-style-level crazy.

Angron is batty.

Mortarion is bitter, resentful, and has an irrational, non-functional hatred of psykers.

Magnus is pretty damn reasonable.

Horus isn't content to do his job. He takes it on himself to be the peer of a being he knows knows better than he does.

Perturabo we've barely seen.

Meanwhile, you maintain Sanguinius, Roboute, Corax, and Manus are the crazy ones?

What books did you read?

The only loyalist that's particularly extreme that we're shown is Dorn, who's just dogmatically loyal.


In a broader sense, remember that the Imperium is the stifling force of order and Chaos is the slavery of total anarchy.

[Casper Hawser]

I agree Curze is insane not reasonable unless reasonable is insane then yes he's reasonable.

I think alot seem to forget that Horus has a choice in False Gods die loyal or live and betray the Emperor I think he knows it's all half truths that he's shown but chooses life over death.

[Chaospling]

Well it helps the overall story. I don't think any of us would be satisfied that the most crucial and epic conflict in human history would be another story where the bad men just wants lots of power. It gives the conflict much more depth, when making the Emperor pragmatic and thus be capable of lying.
Like in the TV series Game of Thrones, nothing is black and white and no choice is easy, this is what makes the Horus Heresy books so exciting.

[althathir]

I think some of it is that were still in the begining stages of the HH, so most of the events that have happened have been fairly close to the primarch's respective falls. So they're gonna come across as more reasonable cause the reasons they fall need to be understandable.

For the loyalists, I think they're trying to go in the other direction where they stay loyal in spite of the faults that could have lead to their downfall.

As for Russ, we're missing a key piece the old fluff had horus changing the command, and through prospero burns we were never told the original order or if it had changed. The wolves also seem to have an understanding of the warp (that kinda gets proven right) which has alot to do with them wanting to take out the sons.

[LordLucan]

We haven't yet seen the Chaos side. There've been a lot of good reasons to turn against the Emperor, but not a lot of good reasons to turn to Chaos. Lots of traitors, very few heretics - so far.

Indeed. It is ok to justify your rebellion in the name of opposing a tyrant. Conjuring horrendous daemonic monsters into reality to eat people's souls and violate reality is a little less sympathetic.

Sure the Emperor was a bit of a prat sometimes, but still... his party is the one with fewer hellbeasts wearing your skin like a cloak...

[Shizzbam]

The thing with all Space Marines and especially the Primarchs, is that they're all essentially children in the bodies of superhuman demi-gods. Their psyches are either still developing or stunted and messed up. The Horus Heresy to me always appears like a giant playground fight, except the playground is the galaxy and the kids have super powers.

The Chaos followers can seem the more reasonable side due to the fact that they've 'matured' somewhat. They've grown up a bit and found out the world is not a fun happy place like Daddy told them.

As for Chaos daemons telling the truth, well of course they do. That's the point of Chaos, it's horrible but it is the true face of the universe. The daemons are clever in that they never lie, they just don't tell the whole truth. Everything they say is true, but they're not necessarily saying everything

[TheDungen]

As the sorcerer in Dawn of war says, "chaos is the only true answer".

They don't need to lie they are gods, they are powerful. Mortal religions and dogmas are all based on lies or half truths.
Chaos inst even evil in its own right its just a reflection of the material universe. The warp is like a bank account you can only withdraw what you've put into it.
The problem is that the deeper darker emotions seem to be dominant in the minds of mortals, and that stupid mortals teach the powers of chaos even worse tricks. The gods only want you to worship them. And help them win dominance over their bothers, they don't care for the material universe its just means for them to one up each other. The idea that you have to kill for your religion smell strongly of humanity. If humanity were inclined to show their devotion by beating the other gods champion at chess the gods would be perfectly fine with that (except maybee khorne).

[Chapters Unwritten]

I always felt like this added to the story a lot. It makes it much more believable that these guys would turn to "Chaos".

The Chaos influence does twist the truth, though. Remember in the one book, where Horus is shown a vision of the future and his statue is not among those of the other primarchs? The vision shows him the true future but twists the context to convince Horus that the Emperor would discard him as it suited his needs.

One thing I have always disagreed with in these books is the portrayal of the Emperor. He seems surprisingly limited in his view of the overarching situation. The Primarchs themselves are impetuous and manipulated by their situations, but it's at least believable. The Emperor being so out of touch with all that went on right under his proverbial nose is petty hard to swallow, and I secretly hope that a later book focusing on him will offer an explanation.

[Haeslich]

I've always found it difficult to feel for the good guys

Don't forget, the loyalists are the "bad" guys. If they win, the universe dies...hence Alpha Legion rationally "choosing" Chaos.

If the Corpse wins, Chaos wins. If The Traitor Legions win, eventually, the galaxy is cleansed.

[Brother Valtarius]

as the sorcerer in dawn of war says, "chaos is the only true answer".

They don't need to lie they are gods, they are powerful. Mortal religions and dogmas are all based on lies or half truths.
Chaos inst even evil in its own right its just a reflection of the material universe. The warp is like a bank account you can only withdraw what you've put into it.
The problem is that the deeper darker emotions seem to be dominant in the minds of mortals, and that stupid mortals teach the powers of chaos even worse tricks. The gods only want you to worship them. And help them win dominance over their bothers, they don't care for the material universe its just means for them to one up each other. The idea that you have to kill for your religion smell strongly of humanity. If humanity were inclined to show their devotion by beating the other gods champion at chess the gods would be perfectly fine with that (except maybee khorne).

"pawns for the pawn throne" :d

[Rogue Star]

It's worth pointing out, that nearly every demon that has shown up in the HH series, like in "The First Heretic", "Aurelian" etc, has been lying.

"We don't want your galaxy, just the Emperor destroyed." - Complete lie. They want and need souls of mortal beings, but also their fears, hopes and dreams provide form and strength to the Immaterium, hence establishing Daemon Worlds in reality.

"You must choose Chaos, the Eldar did not, and they fell." - Another lie, or at least a clever twisting of the truth.

"In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future, There is Only War... you should do something about that." - They've presented the future without context, never once pointing out this future will be almost a direct resulting of the rebellion they are fermenting.

[nedius]

Curze is one of the reasonable ones? Fulgrim's decadent torture on-stage that summoned daemonettes was reasonable?

Seriously, dude, have you read all the HH books?

Yes. All of them. And the audio books.

Lorgar is obsessed with being submissive to a dominant power to bask in its reflected glory.

True, but when he seeks it, he finds it. REALLY finds it. And it is honest with him. Not manipulative, not decietful. Honest.

Compare to the Emperor. Who lied to him. Belittled his beliefs. Punished him.

Fulgrim gets rather perverse before turning.

Did you read my original post? Where I said Fulgrim was the only one with whom I could sympathise with a manipulated decent to chaos? By that point he was all but Chaotic, and only the thought of murdering his brother was enough to stop him short. By which point, it was too late.

Curze is plain crazy. Batman-style-level crazy.

Angron is batty.

Yes, should have added him to Angron, wil give you that.

Mortarion is bitter, resentful, and has an irrational, non-functional hatred of psykers.

Never got that impression of him at all. If anything, he was a compationate one, giving Garro chances his officers would not. His reasons for turning seem to match those of Horus, that he foresaw the legions becoming the 'slaves' of humanity. Which they would have been.

Magnus is pretty damn reasonable.

Entirely. And the responce from his loyal peers? Mistrust, hatred and distruction. He turns to Horus (who did convince Russ to kill him, it's in False Gods)

Horus isn't content to do his job. He takes it on himself to be the peer of a being he knows knows better than he does.

Perturabo we've barely seen.

Horus isn't content because he's position is untenable, and he is made aware of the truth - that the emperor will eventually abandon the primarchs. Yes, Horus is one of only two shown as being at all manipulated when shown the future he creates.

Meanwhile, you maintain Sanguinius, Roboute, Corax, and Manus are the crazy ones?

What books did you read?

The only loyalist that's particularly extreme that we're shown is Dorn, who's just dogmatically loyal.


In a broader sense, remember that the Imperium is the stifling force of order and Chaos is the slavery of total anarchy.

I never said the others were crazy, but that their motives and motivation is rarely set as rationally and sympathetically as those who turn to chaos.

[lekajaw]

I find the fascinating part about all of this is that, in almost every respect, Chaos is the "Good Guys". Which is part of the reason it's so compelling. The emperor, and all of the ideals he represents, is hardly good at all. We are forced to choose between freedom and safety, I find it silly that the safety of the human race is "good". Certainly no more so than freedom. The emperor does all in his power to bend man kind to his will, chaos simply wants people to do what they were going to do anyway. The loyalist seem like idiots because they either refuse to question the emperor, or they think that the survival of the human race trumps any other concern. The eldar had a much better "good" philosophy on all of this, they accept that it's their race's time to die and that chaos is not a thing that can be defeated.