So how does one deal with Warriors of Chaos?

[Whut]

So I'm going to try to keep this thread away from "Waaaah! Waaaaaah! WoC are OP " as best as I can.

Issues to deal with when facing WoC:

1) Chosenstar - everyone knows this will be on here, so might as well be first. This has been complained about time and time again and remains THE most unkillable unit in the game.

2) Saves EVERYWHERE. Important characters have 2+/3++ saves, Wizards have 2+/4++ or better saves, Warshrines have 3++ saves! Nothing is susceptible to anything less than a hard dedicated combat monster unit.

3) Characters on Disks. These just fly around destroying chaff and overall are unkillable because they gut anything that can catch them, and everything else can't. Not to mention they often have 2+/4++ saves or sometimes better. Some of the best and most effective points denial I have ever seen.

4) Marauders with GW and MoK - by far the most cost efficient unit in the entire game. Two WS4 S5 attacks for 5 points per model? Are you kidding? Why was this not FAQ'd in 8th?

5) Hellcannons. Pretty obvious here.

6) Death Magic. Because WoC don't need much magical help to win combat, they can just focus all of their efforts into getting rid of YOUR buffs.

7) Very little dependence on General range. Unlike O&G, Ogres, and other armies who are restricted in the Movement phase because of low on Leadership or have units with stupidity, every WoC block (I haven't seen trolls in awhile) can act independently with lots of flexibility during the deployment phase of a game.

_____
Now the obvious answers still exist, but don't really work like they do against other armies. Redirection is a great tactic, but only works if your chaff isn't already destroyed by magic or Disc characters, and even if you do catch a horde of Marauders (for example) off guard, they are most likely still steadfast because they are so cheap and the enemy just flanks you with a unit that is better than yours. If you try to redirect a Warrior block, they just fly over a Disc character to tie up your unit for a turn (seeing as how he will take basically no damage from most units and thus will win or tie combat on the charge because his profile is way too strong). And so on...


Anyway, what army is best fit to deal with Warriors of Chaos, and how?

[Lord Dan]

What army do you play, what do you often take in your list, and how many points are you playing at?

Even better would be, if you have time, give us an army list and some quick rundowns of the last couple of battles you played. What problems did you run into? What seemed to be the game changers? Are other people in your group having problems with WoC as well?

[MyNameDidntFit]

5) Hellcannons. Pretty obvious here.

Everything else I can understand you having some issues with, but what's the deal with Hellcannons being on here?

[Whut]

Well that is the thing, I'm planning to start a new army so I just want whichever one has the best chance against WoC. 2000-2500 points, but mostly 2500.

Hellcannons: For ~200 points you get a S5 stone thrower. This stone thrower is also a monster, meaning A) once combat hits it is not useless, and B) it is not only immune to the scouts/fliers/fast calv one normally uses to get rid of warmachines, but will also tear through them, C) It does not auto-die to Initiative spells, D) it has essentially a 5+ ward save against cannon shots because of handlers, and E) it has more wounds than your average warmachine. It is also not only just a monster, but is also unbreakable, toughness 6, and has a half-decent save. AND causes terror.

The cannon part of it once again I repeat is S5. Not only this, it causes panic no matter how many casualties it causes, WITH a -1 modifier (plus other Ld modifiers available through magic and a banner).

And lastly, the misfire chart.
1) Bad, but most good warmachines have at least a 1/6 chance of getting a "die" result, some have 1/3 chance. The S5 hits doesn't do much to WoC or hordes of 50 marauders.
2) Cool. Your monster just got a TON faster, but can still just as easily stay in General range if you want to shoot it.
3) You gain an advantage against your opponent because while he most likely needs magic to beat you in combat, you don't need magic to beat him. Plus if you have the Puppet this result might as well be "remove all magic from your opponent plus half of several of his units."
4) 2/3 chance of "who cares?" 1/3 chance of see #2
5) Who cares?
6) You remove the majority of your opponent's unit because the shot is immediately a direct hit at S10, and then you continue being a monster as if nothing happened.

Its the only warmachine I have ever seen that causes its controller to be ECSTATIC when he rolls a misfire.

[Rosstifer]

Skaven walk over Warriors with contemptuous ease. Knights and Monsters? Warplightning cannon will zap those well enough. Warriors and Chosen? The single best target for the Dreaded Thirteenth ever! Marauders? Skaven may have a few template weapons.....

They are the only army that I really really dislike facing with my Warriors. Lizards are very tough too, but with Lizards it feels like a fun tough game, playing against Skaven feels like I'm a 7yr old kid in a Wheelchair trying to fight a gang of champion Boxers.

Actually, I'll just do quick rundown of all the armys from an experienced WOC generals perspective.

Beastmen - Actually a reasonably tough match up. Gor Herds are usually very big, and can grind through Warriors. They also kill tonnes of Khorne Marauders before they even strike. Knights do well against Gor, and Marauders do well against Bestigor. Hellcannon is gold in this matchup. Big blocks of infantry, and if they stray out of LD bubble, they are on a ropey LD7.

Bretonians - Not an easy match-up, but one I feel confident in. If you charge them, you will win. If they charge you, you just need to hold them a turn, and they won't be able to kill anything without the Lance bonus. They are tough to kill though, S5 isn't that great against Brets, they get a 4+/5++ which is quite tough.

Daemons - Bloodthirsters are tough. If no Thirster, I'm looking for a big win. Warriors outfight Daemonic Infantry. Try and land the Hellcannon on the Thirsters head. Even if you don't hit him, sometimes the mere threat of this is enough to make the Daemon player hide Billy.

Dark Elves - Shooting doesn't do much to Warriors, nor does the Hydra. Mindrazor is the biggest issue here. I'd say just an ok match up.

Dwarfs. Decent match up, We can get 2 GW Marauders for every Dwarf Warrior, and Warriors and Knights can weather alot of the shooting.

High Elves - Same as Dark Elves, decent match up but watch out for Mindrazor and White Lions!

Lizardmen - Double Slann is tough, Scar Vets are horrid and it's hard to get into their points. They won't usually beat you by a lot, but I'd say this is a poor match up.

Ogre Kingdoms - Good match up. They fight, you fight, you fight better. Ogres can beat Warriors, but usually you should be alright. Mournfangs hate S5.

Orcs and Goblins - Just an ok match up. Doom Divers murder knights, and Fanatics and Manglers are annoying and devastating vs Warriors. However, Savage Orcs are the only unit they have that can fight WOC, so when you get to the army, you'll often make back the points you lost on the way in.

Skaven - Eurgggh.

The Empire - A better match up with the new book. Easier to kill the Stank, less bloody thrice cursed Speculums around, no S5 Helstorms (God they were horrible). Watch out for the Demigryphs though.

Tomb Kings - A good match up. Knights and Casket are nasty, but you can mash through them reasonably well. Not an auto win, but definetly in your favour, as you often win combat so crumbling+ lots of dead undead.

Vampire Counts - Same as Tomb Kings, but watch out for Screams.

Wood Elves - A good match up, unless you have just Marauders. Wood Elves struggle with Armour, especially 1+ saves, and they have little combat power to threaten ours.

Just some thoughts, off the top of my head.

[Lord Dan]

I can't let you pick an army just because it's good against another army. List some armies that interest you, and from there we can discuss the advantages and disadvantages (within the context of your concerns in the first post) with that army against WoC.

[Whut]

Well, whichever one will never make me feel like I've already lost at deployment.

For example, when Brettonia deploys against undead, daemons, or skaven (things they can't break on the charge), sometimes it just feels like Brettonia might as well forfeit immediately.

Any kind of similar situation I NEVER want to find myself in. I always want a fair chance to win.

I would however prefer not to do Skaven, just because of money.

[Lord Dan]

You don't find one army to be cool looking, or have interesting background, or better looking models over another? Give us an idea of where to start and I promise we won't lead you down the wrong road.

[Whut]

I'm interested in this double-slann you speak of. Wouldn't that be overloading points on magic (assuming 2500 point range)? What would a typical double slann list look like?

[Whut]

You don't find one army to be cool looking, or have interesting background, or better looking models over another? Give us an idea of where to start and I promise we won't lead you down the wrong road.

No, I really don't have any theme I particularly like more than the others. I really like them all, for me it only comes down to how each army plays.

[Lord Dan]

I'm interested in this double-slann you speak of.

*facepalm*

[Whut]

*facepalm*

Well I don't know whether or not I would like to play it, I just want to know the concept.

For example, I really enjoy my O&G, but at the same time I don't like how much the army relies on keeping everything within range of the General (and it just ends up being a cluster#%$! of units). The army works most of the time, but playing it is meh.

If the Double - Slann ends up being the same then I'm probably not interested, but first I just want to see.

[Rosstifer]

Here is a pretty standard Double Slann list, Slann blast things and buff things, Scar Vets run around solo and cause Havoc, Skinks poison the world with a million poisoned shots, Salamanders template things, Terradons nuke chaff and Warmachines and the Saurus mop up what's left. You have a heap of tiny units worth no points, and everything is cold blooded, so can operate solo decently.

Slann Mage-Priest (General); Lore of Light, The Focused Rumination, Earthing Rod.
Slann Mage-Priest; Battle Standard Bearer, Lore of Metal, Soul of Stone.
Saurus Scar-Veteran; Cold One, Light Armour, Burning Blade of Chotec, Charmed Shield, Dawnstone.
Saurus Scar-Veteran; Cold One, Light Armour, Great Weapon, Dragonhelm, Amulet of Itzl, Venom of the Firefly Frog.
Skink Priest; Lore of Heavens, Cube of Darkness.

29 Saurus Warriors; Full Command.
21 Skinks; Musician.
21 Skinks; Musician.
10 Skinks
10 Skink Skirmishers
10 Skink Skirmishers
10 Skink Skirmishers

3 Terradon Riders
3 Terradon Riders
9 Chameleon Skinks
8 Chameleon Skinks

2 Salamander Hunting Packs

2400pts total.

[Wbarobinson]

Single slann is good enough
450 on slann,
400 on temple guard
700 in saurus warriors (2 blocks h/s)
Max salamanders 450 (this is very dirty against woc)
Max mounted scar veterans 500
Chameleons to kill dogs if you like?

The scar vets decimate the hellcannons... The salamanders decimate the warriors... Magic is a win... And the 90 t4 4asave wounds are just there to mop up the bits...

As a lizardmen player, I am pleased to fight WoC because as an ex high elf player it gives me great vegenful pleasure.

[Lord Dan]

If the Double - Slann ends up being the same then I'm probably not interested, but first I just want to see.

The double slann list, as Rosstifer demonstrates above, is far nastier than any of the difficult points mentioned about WoC in your opening post. My concern is that if you go that route we'll end up with a string of ironic threads from your opponents entitled: "So how does one deal with double-slann lizardmen?"

[Whut]

Is a list like that actually able to destroy enough of an opponent's army that the opponent doesn't reach the unit with the 2 Slann in it?

[Whut]

The double slann list, as Rosstifer demonstrates above, is far nastier than any of the difficult points mentioned about WoC in your opening post. My concern is that if you go that route we'll end up with a string of ironic threads from your opponents entitled: "So how does one deal with double-slann lizardmen?"

Haha this made me laugh

[Rosstifer]

Is a list like that actually able to destroy enough of an opponent's army that the opponent doesn't reach the unit with the 2 Slann in it?

God, don't put them both in one unit! Slann are infantry, just like Saurus and Skinks. Stick one whatever unit you want, say, the 20 skinks, and when most of that unit is dead, hop him in another unit.
You have so many units that you can jump around like that with impunity. If they don't have much shooting the Slann don't even need to go in units.

And yes, it's perfectly capable of killing most things, 90ish poisoned shots makes big holes, as do the salamanders. Timewarped Saurus are viscous, and you have Final Transmutation to kill a third of any unit you don't like the look of. Plus if you keep running away and moving backwards etc etc, they will never get into anything you don't want them too.

As Lord Dan said though, it's not the most friendly list in the world.

[Whut]

Well if it really is that unfriendly I'd like to stay away if possible.
So what other kind of stuff is there?

Though I don't think I'll be starting a skaven army, could someone give me an example of that? Just for knowledge's sake if anyone doesn't mind.

[Rosstifer]

Heres a Skaven list that has actually made grown men cry (allegedly)

Grey Seer(General; Ruin and/or Plague), Earthing Rod; Obsidian Loadstone
Grey Seer(Ruin and/or Plague), Power Scroll

Warlock Engineer, Level 1 Wizard; (Ruin); Dispell Scroll
Warlock Engineer, Brass Orb
Warlock Engineer, Doom Rocket
Chieftain, Battle Standard; Banner Of Discipline

40 Skavenslaves, Musician
40 Skavenslaves, Musician
40 Skavenslaves, Musician
5 Giant Rats, Packmaster
5 Giant Rats, Packmaster
5 Giant Rats, Packmaster
28 Clanrats, Clawleader; Musician; shields; Ratling Gun
30 Clanrats, Clawleader; Musician; Standard Bearer; shields; Poisoned Wind Mortar

10 Gutter Runners, Slings; Poisoned Attacks
10 Gutter Runners, Slings; Poisoned Attacks

Hell Pit Abomination, Warpstone spikes
Warp Lightning Cannon
Plagueclaw Catapult

2398

I have alot of horrible lists saved on my PC so that just before a Tourney I can go through them and think up ways my list would deal with them. Bit sad, but hey, it helps.

This list will make you even less friends than the Lizard list. On the flip side, you will win pretty much every game you ever play!