How are all the things I mentioned in my first post not over the top, especially the nearly Unkillable Disc Characters and Marauders with 2 S5 attacks at WS4 (I4 helps against I test spells) for 5 points each?
How are all the things I mentioned in my first post not over the top, especially the nearly Unkillable Disc Characters and Marauders with 2 S5 attacks at WS4 (I4 helps against I test spells) for 5 points each?
I think his point is that WoC as a whole aren't broken in the way that Daemons were in 7th. Rather, you have an opponent who happens to take the strongest build, and the only way to beat that kind of ridiculousness is to build an army that is even nastier and less fun to play against.Originally Posted by Whut
Well then what do I do? It's just depressing that I can't win 1st place.
This.
Nearly unkillable lords are naff if you use magic. Even a 3 or 4+ ward is failed 1/3 times and any sufficiently killy lord is going to mean your opponent has no Lvl4. Marauders are definitely undercosted at the moment, but they're hardly impossible to deal with.
While WoC are a powerful army, they're certainly not the army to beat. If no-one in your local meta can beat this player's army, perhaps it is not he who is at fault?
elves in the snow
a blog of Wood Elves and Warhammer
Instead of investing in a whole new army, why don't we try to make your O&G more competitive? Can you post a list of what you typically run?
Well I had a slightly different one before, but here is my WIP O&G list now:
At 2500 points, I have 358 points left to spend, but I don't know what to spend it on.
Lords # Points Savage Great Shaman, Lvl 4, Fencer'sBlades, ShrunkenHead 1 290 Orc Warboss, ASF Sword, Armor of Destiny, Dawnstone, Shield, Boar 1 242 Heroes # Points Goblin Big Boss BSB 1 60 Night Goblin Shaman, Lvl 1, Dispel Scroll 1 75 Core # Points Savage Orc Big-Uns w/ AHW, Standard, Music 40 460 Night Goblins + Music 20 95 Goblin Wolf Riders, Spears, Music 5 65 Special # Points Squig Herd, 40 Squigs, 15 Goblins 55 365 Rare # Points River Trolls 8 360 Mangler Squig 2 130
My biggest issue with my previous list is that both the Trolls and Squigs REQUIRE the General in range, and preferably the BSB as well. Since this causes a cluster**** this really lowers the movement capabilities of my army.
Last edited by Whut; 15-05-2012 at 22:15.
Alright, here's what I would do:
Savage orc Warboss, 4+ ward, x2 HW
Orc Great Shaman, Lv. 4, Scroll
Orc Big Boss, BSB, Armor of Destiny, Shield
Savage Orc Big Boss, Shield
Savage Orc Big Boss, Shield
30 Savage orcs, x2 HW, full command, big uns
30 Savage orcs, x2 HW, full command, big uns
30 savage orcs, x2 HW, full command, big uns
19 Orc Boyz, musician
5 Wolf Riders, Spears, Musician
5 Wolf Riders, Spears, Musician
5 Wolf Riders, Spears, Musician
5 Wolf Riders, Spears, Musician
6 Trolls
6 Trolls
Spear Chukka
Spear Chukka
Spear Chukka
Lobba
Lobba
I have no idea what it comes out to.
If only...
You are only allowed 1 unit of BigUns of each unit choice (so only one SOBU unit of greatness).
Plus the Shrunken Head is very important because of the 5++ Ward it gives that one unit.
Also whatever you just wrote I would say (just at a glance) approaches 3500 points at least.
___
One last thing about the Lizardmen list. I see there 2 units of 20 Skinks and 1 unit of 10 Skinks. What purpose do they serve? Do they just walk up to something and throw javelins and then die? I can't see them being able to maneuver out of unit's arcs and still shoot, and they can't fight anything due to T2 and no save.
Last edited by Whut; 16-05-2012 at 01:55.
Okay, so drop the other two to non-big un's. I think you're putting way too much stock into a 5+ ward save, not to mention it's an expensive item that requires your Lv. 4 shaman be:
1. frenzied
2. running around with a unit bound for combat
By my count the list comes out to 2668, which means you can drop a chukka and two units of wolves to bring it in to 2500.
In the Lizardmen list the skinks are just chaff. The bigger units are to house the Slann when they need to, and the smaller one is to get in the way and redirect/hold units up for a turn. The skirmishers are the ones with ranged weapons, and with M6 (5?) they're easily capable of getting out of charge arcs.
But then won't my entire fighting force consist of 1 Unit of 30 SOBU and 2 Units of 6 Trolls? That's pretty weak. Also the chukkas might be a good idea but why lobbas? Thats 90 points down the drain just for the center shot (as the S3 template isn't so useful), nor is it accurate (like empire/dwarfs). And whats with all the big bosses? Those points really add up and against tougher enemies (HE elites, WoC, etc) the boss might just die before he gets to swing.
Ok so we've seen what you usually field, and it's a solid list (aside from the river trolls, think you would be better served with regular trolls and a few more boots on the ground). What I'd like to know however, would be what kind of list is your opponent fielding. You list several competitive elements of WoC but you would never be able to field all of them in the same army. The Chosenstar build alone costs close to 1k points, Knightstar more so.
Well I don't remember his usual list tbh, and he does switch it up a bit almost every tourney he plays. I can always see either 2 Cannons or 2 Warshrines, 1-2 Disc Heroes (I'm like 80% sure he actually builds 2-3 lists and just whip one out when he sees what the first scenario is, as in the last tourney the first mission was a 40k objective-type mission and he took 2 discs while he only ever took 1 in the past, and similar occurrences like this happened before) at lower points he runs a Tzeench warrior block with MR and the 5++ save standard to make them unkillable at range other than a few select spells, at higher points he takes the Chosen block. Other than that he fancies 50 marauders (sometimes 2 of these), Nurgle Knights with rage banner, and death magic.
And then there is his Death Magic, -1 Ld banner, Infernal Puppet, and Double hellcannon list that just makes your entire army flee or blow up by turn 3-4 unless you are ITP.
Argh! Why is so many people saying Demons are top 5? Fateweaver might scrape in with luck but generally from the dozens of games I've seen and played with them I find this claim unsubstantiated.
40k armies: GKs; Eldar; Deathguard, Demons
WHFB: Dwarves, Lizardmen, High Elves, VC, Demons, WoC
...said the Daemons player.
Because all these supposed tiers are made by 'competitive' players who base them around the most abusive list a given book can generate, if you face and use such builds regularly then they have 'some' relevance if not they are meaningless and all you can really compare is the sort of list you use versus your opponents and given your comments it may be you are playing with a slightly less powerful build than your opponents. This sort of mismatch due to poor internal and external balance of army books leads to most of the complaint type threads on Warseer.
To paraphrase Harry: 8th edition and Storm of Magic - BRING IT ON!
This is completely true. Too many people don't understand what a competitive build of an army is.
Anyone can say "Well Daemons suck because Beasts of Nurgle are bad."
Although I don't know a lot about Fantasy, I see it very clearly from a 40k point of view.
Last edited by Whut; 21-05-2012 at 19:11.
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