Why Don't I See More Dwarf Anvils?

[shelfunit.]

IF is always possible and you can't help that, but if they don't get it off they are taking miners into the rear of the unit with their caster.

Not sure how you work that one out - miners turn up at best on turn two and if my op sees I have them combined with an anvil his caster units will be nowhere near a table edge

I never go for ancient power unless I'm losing.

Same here when I used them back in 7th ed, but otherwise they at best affect one unit, which at over 300pts basic is not great value in my eyes.

What is better: one character that can be tied up in a challenge or a horde of miners in a flank?

A horde of miners combined with an anvil is close to 1/3 of a 2000pt army's total, I'm not willing to risk that one trick pony on most of the armies out there - DEs, O&Gs, Skaven, Empire, TK, VCs all have numbers on their sde and can have flank protectors that make a single unit of miners a drop in the ocean.

Don't get me wrong in this - the anvil does have it's uses - in much larger games (4k+) I would take one as a distraction for my opp to chase after in preference to other warmachines etc but at 2-2.5k games I would only take one in a narative campaign - it just doesn't have the tactical flexability outside ofan ary specifically designed around it, and if it does get IF'ed or explodes/does nothing for 2 turns then the remainder of thaat army is going to get pumelled.

[Malorian]

Not sure how you work that one out - miners turn up at best on turn two and if my op sees I have them combined with an anvil his caster units will be nowhere near a table edge

A horde of miners combined with an anvil is close to 1/3 of a 2000pt army's total, I'm not willing to risk that one trick pony on most of the armies out there - DEs, O&Gs, Skaven, Empire, TK, VCs all have numbers on their sde and can have flank protectors that make a single unit of miners a drop in the ocean.

Don't get me wrong in this - the anvil does have it's uses - in much larger games (4k+) I would take one as a distraction for my opp to chase after in preference to other warmachines etc but at 2-2.5k games I would only take one in a narative campaign - it just doesn't have the tactical flexability outside ofan ary specifically designed around it, and if it does get IF'ed or explodes/does nothing for 2 turns then the remainder of thaat army is going to get pumelled.

With the steamdrill you have a 75% chance of getting those miners on turn 2. Now of course it really helps if you get first turn (you can also hit the target unit to reduce their speed) but even if they get two turns of mraching up you can still hit the flank and overrun.

The miner unit doesn't need to be a horde, I find 20-25 gets the job done, but a dwarf lord is about 300 points which is the same as a horde, which is why I made the comparision. Hell it doesn't even need to be miners, what it really comes down to is a dwarf lord which can only do so much damage or the ability to put one of the units your already have and put it into a game winning position.

4K is a very high bar to set. My cut off point is 2K. At 2K or less I go rune priest and anything higher I go full anvil.

In the end I think the anvil will only be appreachiated when the next dwarf book comes out and it loses the ability to out of sequence charge (like how everything else is losing it).

[Malorian]

This is my game that lead to this thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vslo...ature=youtu.be

[Razakel]

Alright, I see what you mean by the Anvil having just watched your battle report, but I really feel like you are catering to the exceptional circumstance.

He:

• Failed critical break tests
• Failed several panic tests
• Failed to rally his marauder unit (extremely important)
• Had poor deployment (in my opinion) particularly when your deployment was amazing
• Was clearly caught off guard by the power of the Anvil, a more prepared opponent would not have been so wrecked by the Miners

These things happen to prepared opponents too, but the apparent worth of the Anvil is being really inflamed by the good luck you had, and the bad luck he had. I'd get a game like that one perhaps one game in thirty? Or forty? Where everything goes right for you, and nothing goes right for him. You were also playing a strange modified version of the watchtower scenario that I've not seen played in a long time, with an actual watchtower scenario, his starting unit would've been in hardcover from the building and your Anvil-charging warriors would've only had a limited number of attacks.

I think the Anvil is good and certainly usable, but I wouldn't use this game as a showcase. Having people watch that and going "see, this is what every game with an Anvil will be like" is very dishonest, that game is not a good reason for people to start using an Anvil because a fairly large chunk of what decided that game was based on fortune. Had your Anvil misfired for any of your critical charges, you could've been seriously screwed.

Anyway, I obviously watched the game and liked it (as I always do with your battle reports), but I'm going to have to respectfully disagree that this game is a good demonstration on why Dwarf players should start using the Anvil of Doom.

[Swordthain]

@Malorian: I just watched one of your battle reports, which was a blast! I'll respond in the next couple of days, because I think this is a good discussion. I might sound very opinionated, but in truth, I'm always open to others' ideas. I have to get through finals this week. LOL

May the hairs on your toes never fall out!

[Montegue]

Hiya, Swordthain!

I really have to disagree with you on building a list around the Anvil. The Anvil itself is useful in just about any style of Dwarf play. My most effective army is basically the "Furgil" list with some unit champions removed and the Anvil added instead of the second Organ Gun. It plays just like the standard lists, with a couple of exceptions.

Assuming the Anvil does it's job, I can pretty much eliminate a big foot slogging unit until the very end of the game. If that unit is something I can handle in combat, I can switch my artillery's attention to the next threat and burn it down until it's no longer combat effective. Then, I can use the Anvil to get a flank charge into that unit to crush it, and then switch my Artillery back to the original slowed unit. Then all three hordes converge on that threat, and victory follows. At least, ideally

There's nothing in particular that messes with my Anvil build that doesn't mess with a standard dwarf build, and the Anvil helps solve some of the problems our regular builds encounter (gut stars, ethereal cavalry, late game movement and combat arrangement, etc). It also has applications in scenarios where movement is necessary (dawn attack, for example, or tournament scenarios that require you to take the center of the field or some other objective).

It's big weakness is to Pit of Shades, Purple Sun, etc. Basically, the Big Bad spells. It's a lot of points invested, and if you haven't earned those points before that spell kills the Anvil, you're in trouble. A lot of that threat can be eliminated with deployment choices and by slowing the bunker for the Wizard down to keep them as far away as possible for as long as possible. Anti Magic should take care of the rest, barring IF, which you really can't do anything about anyway.

[Novrain]

The thing I hate most about the anvil....

...is the D3 part of ancient power! The number of times I have chosen to risk ancient power to try and rescue a game only to roll for 1 flipping unit! Grrr...

[Malorian]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree that this game is a good demonstration on why Dwarf players should start using the Anvil of Doom.

That's fair enough.

Maybe it's just my area, but I find that the complete lack of anvil means that people are caught off guard every time by it. Hell, this opponent's first army was dwarfs and even he didn't see it coming!

If for only that reason alone I think dwarf players should take advantage of that and use the anvil at least once to surprise their opponents

[Swordthain]

Well, as regarding my double Miners list, I do actually use Thorek Ironbrow in that list, so I have a decent chance of getting both units on the table first turn and then getting them to charge via the Anvil on that first turn. It doesn't always work, and sometimes it even works against me, but it is a seriously fun list to play.

Okay, so you all have made a good argument for the use of an Anvil in the role, basically, of a multi-purpose tactical element that is roughly comparable to a warmachine in terms of its expense when building a list. I have to still disagree with its use in this role in terms of competitive play. I think my opinion is based on experience more than anything, having used the Anvil quite a lot in games since its advent. I admit it is difficult to compare the AoD with anything else, because it is indeed incredibly unique--one of its best features in the Dwarf army book. However, imagine what it does in comparison to a fully runed-up Grudge Thrower (RoAccuracy, x2 RoPenetrating, and Engineer upgrade=170 points). The Anvil (175 points +Runelord) will rarely inflict comparable damage, let alone more damage. 170 points would buy enough Great Weapon Warriors to render its Rune of Hearth and Hold superfluous. So, then, there are two reasons to actually take the Anvil of Doom: to slow an enemy's units or to speed up your own. These are the options for dedicated tactical capabilities of the AoD. Simply adding the appropriate units to enable sufficient return on the investment in either of these tactical capabilities necessitates a significant expenditure in terms of the percentage of your force that is to be dedicated to those tactical capabilities. Even provided that you plan to employ both in your force (to enable strategic adaptability), you have to spend approximately 30-40% of your points in a 2000-3000 point list. That means you design your list around that tactical element simply by virtue of its presence. Obviously, no force is complete on the basis of a single tactical capability. Other elements are necessary, but none are as specialized in a Dwarf force as the Anvil of Doom and its assumed tactical compliments.

Take a real-life scenario for example. The invasion of Normandy during WWII utilized a dedicated specialized tactical capability around which the entire force was designed: airborne infantry. This tactical capability allowed the conventional elements (which were the same as those of any significant military force at the time) to take and hold ground by eliminating German resistance at key objectives prior to the advance of those conventional tactical elements. Without the significant contribution of airborne infantry elements, the invasion of Normandy would have been a total disaster.

Thus, applied to the game of WHFB, that is what the AoD provides, and that is also why any competitive list must necessarily be designed around its presence in the list.

[Warhammer Madman]

I use an anvil in my dwarf army and it explodes all the time... (5 times in 20 games) now its a pain in the a$$ but its worth it most of the time.

when it explodes it can turn a victory into a close fought draw if its early enough. its worse if it explodes in the middle of the game as if its early you can adapt your strategy or if its past first contact its job is mainly done.

[Luigi]

Near the advent of 8th edition (the end of 7th)
I started really using the anvil for the first time (look at my avatar )
And I fell in love with it: it was magnificent. Miners? Rangers? Regular dudes? you name it they were, with the anvil greatly superior in performing their job.

8th ed. came along and I found it a much better edition than the previous one however since things changed a little I opted for hero only lists (I do own a lord on shield, however I find it too overcosted and a simple Thane does, I believe the same amount of damage, and you can afford 2+ thanes for the points of a single Lord and i refuse to deploy an "unmounted" lord)

Back to the anvil, my thoughts were as follows
Dwarfs can now charge almost anyways regularly thanks to the new charge rules
Charges are now not as essentials for the win as they previously were (it still help but it is not as game breaking as before)
random scenarios means that there is the opportunity for the anvil not to come in game from the beginning (same reason that made me revaluate the role of shooting and opt for a more CaC army.

But what mostly made me drop the anvil was the new army building system: I use always the same build for the anvil that cost me 398pt, this mean that i cannot field it without sacrifying a lot of other units (consider that my staple artillery choice of 4 fully runed ballistas and 2 organ guns is 630) at the 2000-2500 pt range.

However in a bigger game I'd definitely take back my old runelord and his anvil to the battlefield

PS i do not know if this really matters here but despite my dropping of the anvil I still deploy units of rangers and miners

[Ceodoc]

Can a Anvil upgraded Runelord be single targeted by a charging or CC unit?
As he is a character.

Doc

[Sylass]

Can a Anvil upgraded Runelord be single targeted by a charging or CC unit?
As he is a character.

Doc

As far as I know, the Runelord, the Guards and the Anvil fight as a single model (following the rules for warmachines) and you wouldn't be able to single him out.

[Stymie Jackson]

Seriously?

1) It blows up. Over the last two years of 8th edition tourney play I've watched dwarf players shift their army lists. A lot of us took anvils early on. Last tourny most of us have dropped them. Instead of 4/5 being anvil lists, it was 1/5. Why? If it blows up it almost always costs you the game. 400+ VP, add usually another 100 for General (you can take another character to be a general, but then you may be over-investing in characters), and all your anti-magic gone.

That last is a big one. You all know how potent magic can be. With no magic defense Dwarves are in a world of hurt.

2) It's unreliable. When you really need it to work it can roll a 1. You ever play Orks in 40k? Yeah, don't push that red button? The green idiots always push that red button at the worst time. Miners appear, you fail to anvil move them? Bad new for your isolated miners.

3) It auto dies. This does not happen a lot but if a Dark Elf sorceress gets within 24" of the anvil you can kiss it goodbye usually. Many instant death spells are 24 inch range, and that is hard to prevent against fast enemies. See point 1...you lose usually 500 VP, your general (more points in tournies), and your anti-magic.

I used to love the anvil. Now I only bring it to fun games...never competitive games, or games I want to win. Dwarves are a RELIABLE race. We use runes to make our stuff work when we need it, more often than anyone else in the game. We pass more break tests, our arty lasts longer, and we enjoy plenty of re-rolls (ever play Blood Bowl? Ever try a zero re-roll team? Yeah thought so). So why take the single highest point unit in the game which is just simply UNRELIABLE, and have no way to make it more reliable?

Look, if you've been playing GW games for years you eventually get an aversion to anything that works unless you rol a 1. Such items tend to just not be properly balanced and often frustrating. Again, for fun matches they can be a blast and worth a laugh when it fails. Not for when you spend a bunch of money and an entire weekend on a tournament, or when you want to beat that guy with the list that walks all over everyone else.

The anvil is considered overpowered by suckers who faced someone who got off ancient power several times. It opens up a world of tactics closed to Dawi players usually yes. At the cost of potentially losing the game when it explodes, when it instant dies to a spell you cannot stop (double 6s on the power dice? who cares how many dispel dice you have), and when it fails to work when you really need it to.

Most Dwarf players take it less because we'd rather spend the points on more warriors, cannons and hammerers. Because these kill things, and are reliable. Enough said, there's a dozen other threads on this forum already on the subject.

[Montegue]

I have to sadly now agree with Stymie. The Anvil is a wonderful tool that is too easy to kill and fails to provide the needed benefits when they absolutely must happen. It also focuses the entirety of your magic defense into an easily targeted war machine. One pit of shades kills it dead, and they only need to IF one time to make it happen.

I was very seriously thinking about trying to compete on a GT level with the Anvil, and have given up that hope. After a tournament in which it was 1) pitted and 2) blew itself up turn 2, I can't trust it.

Given that dwarfs have absolutely no way to turn combat in their favor outside of getting a counter charge into the flank, it's just not viable to put such a risky thing in the army at 2500 points. More artillery, even a killy lord up on shieldbearers is a better option. At least can reliably put down ogres and suchlike.

Maybe when the new book comes out, the Anvil of Doom will become more reliable than a goblin spear Chukka.

[Clockwork]

I used to love the anvil. Now I only bring it to fun games...never competitive games, or games I want to win. Dwarves are a RELIABLE race. We use runes to make our stuff work when we need it, more often than anyone else in the game. We pass more break tests, our arty lasts longer, and we enjoy plenty of re-rolls (ever play Blood Bowl? Ever try a zero re-roll team? Yeah thought so). So why take the single highest point unit in the game which is just simply UNRELIABLE, and have no way to make it more reliable?

Look, if you've been playing GW games for years you eventually get an aversion to anything that works unless you rol a 1.

Just throwing my hat into the ring here, but I'm pretty sure Slann are more expensive than an Anvil. Also, plenty of Lizardmen players take the Cupped Hands (even though its a fail on a 1 item), and plenty of Dark Elf players take the Pendant of Khaeleth (Even though its a reverse, and fail on a 6 item), just to name two examples. Maybe you're referring to Dwarfs only, in which case I could see your point, but it seems pretty poor logic to claim that it applies to all Warhammer players...

[Blast Hardcheese]

The fact she can blow easily if you use ancient power, and it is not really worth the points if you don't. The issue is you have a 50% chance to misfire for AP, and even then if you roll a 1 or 2 it was not worth the gamble. As a Dwarf player since literally before I was able to grow a beard, I like things that are reliable. I have always used bolt throwers by example. Blocks of Leadership 9 infantry, pretty darn reliable. I have owned an anvil since 6th edition, and have never once fielded it. I do not feel like I am missing out on any real tactical options other than spin move flank charges. It just seems like all your eggs in one basket kind of move to me. I usually take a pricey dwarf lord, but usually he takes the beating from the super killey Tyrant, Chaos Lord, Saurus, while my Hammerers pound the unit to dust. The cost of that unit is normally about 100pts more than an anvil. Basically I say the dang thing is umgak. You have to tailor your list to it, and it soaks up points dwarfs need for numbers on the field.

One quick question, what is the "Furgil" list? I do not do tournaments so am out of the loop on that one. Also what do I got to do to be known as a dwarf guru around here (jk)?

[Montegue]

Furgil is the net name for one of the most successful dwarf players in the sw Usa. He essentially takes three hordes an a heavy combination of artillery. It is probably the strongest dwarf build but is terribly unforgiving of mistakes.