It seems as though you are right: Page 27 of my PDF copy of the Eldar Codex says that they MUST have a power however the same page of my real hardcopy of the Codex says MAY select a power, interesting...Originally Posted by TheDoctor
Regardless though, Warlocks in Guardian squads are for more useful if they do have a power rather than not...
Everyone Dies. It's the final and only lasting Justice. There's no greater good than Justice; It is said correctly that law exists not for the Just but for the unjust, I bow to no one and I give service only for cause...
I've been brooding over the list myself, but drew different conclusions from it.
First of all, the Missile-Lance Lords are a staple for a reason. They are one of the best ranged AT options we have, and no other combination of heavy weapons comes even remotely close, in my experience.
Second, the dire Avengers got a huge benefit over Guardians: 18" guns. That's a huge advantage in my opinion, not just because you can often shoot units without venturing into their charge range. It also allows for a combined attack by all three units on the same doomed target.
Regards
RT
Currently really psyched about: My Cygnar army
My Warmachine Tactics Introduction Guide
A wraithlord with bright lance and missile launcher has less chance of hitting than my GUIDED war walkers. I already have the scatter laser war walkers there. One cannon for 130 pts is the eldar norm. Only jetbikes and war walkers really improve on it. The question here really is about durability.
Guided War Walkers work out better in terms of damage at range.
Good point regarding the dire avengers, but that assumes that the enemy are going to get close enough. At long range the guardians are better, at close range I may need the singing spear. I'll probably try both.
My worry is what will happen if I end up against a guard army with multiple leman russ tanks and or hell hounds. That is what the singing spears are for.
Last edited by Frimbleglim; 19-05-2012 at 11:16.
Gods in 3.0 D&D play dice with the universe, sometimes throw the dice behind the DM's screen where they cannot be seen and then count as getting the best possible result.
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." -Donnal O'Shea The Poincare Conjecture.
True, unguided Warwalkers already come out ahead of Wraithlords in hits per points, guided even more so. I don't think anyone can make a point against large Walker formations instead of Wraithlords, especially in a foot-slooging list, as you end up denying the the enemy any targets worthy of their expansive AT guns. Hehe.
My point was more about Scatter-Lance Walkers, which I don't see as working out. Their primary targets are too different, you'll always waste firepower, no matter what you fire at. The beauty of the Lance-Missile combo is that the weapon profiles are so similar, you don't loose much compared to a twin-missile Lord or a twin-Lance Lord (if those were still possible).
The issue I have with the Guardians is pretty much this: their long ranged fire is so bad (for their points), I don't think it's worth it, and 12" Spears on a slow, foot-slogging unit that wants to be as far away from the enemy as humanly possible doesn't really sound like the solution to Leman Russ tanks... If that's what you're looking for, why not invest in a couple of:
3 Jetbikes, Shurican Cannon, + Warlock, Destructor, Spear (134 pts)
Personally I think they are about 20 points to expansive for what they do, but they are better at tank hunting than the slow footsloggers, can potentially hurt hordes, up to Space Marine Scouts and Imperial Stormtroopers, and they are fast enough to avoid confrontations they don't like.
Currently really psyched about: My Cygnar army
My Warmachine Tactics Introduction Guide
I'm not sure what you mean about the scatter-lance walkers. I don't think anyone has suggested that.
When you put it that way I have to agree. (great! Now I don't have to buy any Guardians) Jetbikes and Dire avengers it is. Or maybe just one unit of Guardians for the embolden. Aha maybe that was the reason they were in the list.
What do you think of the warp spiders in my list? They look very expensive compared to the other units. Also wouldnt' I want jet-bikes in bigger units than that to keep the shuriken cannon and warlocks alive?
Last edited by Frimbleglim; 19-05-2012 at 14:27.
Gods in 3.0 D&D play dice with the universe, sometimes throw the dice behind the DM's screen where they cannot be seen and then count as getting the best possible result.
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." -Donnal O'Shea The Poincare Conjecture.
So the army list currently stands at:-
HQ
Avatar:- 155
Farseer, Spirit Stones, Guide, Fortune, Singing Spear:- 128
3 Warlocks, Singing Spear x1, Embolden:- 83
Elites
5 Harlequins, Death Jester, Shadowseer, Fusion Pistol x2:- 150
5 Harlequins, Death Jester, Shadowseer, Fusion Pistol x2:- 150
5 Harlequins, Death Jester, Shadowseer, Fusion Pistol x2:- 150
Troops
10 Dire Avengers: 120
10 Dire Avengers: 120
10 Dire Avengers: 120
Fast Attack
10 Warp Spiders, Exarch, Additional Death Spinner, Withdraw:- 252
Heavy Support
3 War Walkers, 6x Scatter laser:- 180
3 War Walkers, 3x bright lance 3x Eldar Missile Launcher:- 240
Total:- 1848
or alternatively:
HQ
Avatar:- 155
Farseer, Spirit Stones, Guide, Fortune, Singing Spear:- 128
3 Warlocks, Singing Spear x1, Embolden:- 83
Elites
7 Harlequins, Death Jester, Shadowseer, Fusion Pistol x2:- 186
7 Harlequins, Death Jester, Shadowseer, Fusion Pistol x2:- 186
5 Fire Dragons, Exarch, Firepike, Crack Shot:- 105
Troops
10 Dire Avengers: 120
10 Dire Avengers: 120
10 Dire Avengers: 120
Fast Attack
9 Warp Spiders, Exarch, Withdraw:- 225
Heavy Support
3 War Walkers, 6x Scatter laser:- 180
3 War Walkers, 3x bright lance 3x Eldar Missile Launcher:- 240
Total:- 1848
I'm starting to like this list. The fact that nothing is quite acting in the way you would expect suits me fine.
Last edited by Frimbleglim; 19-05-2012 at 18:31.
Gods in 3.0 D&D play dice with the universe, sometimes throw the dice behind the DM's screen where they cannot be seen and then count as getting the best possible result.
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." -Donnal O'Shea The Poincare Conjecture.
I'm not sure what you mean about the scatter-lance walkers. I don't think anyone has suggested that.
Then I must have mixed some neurons up. I appologize.
When you put it that way I have to agree. (great! Now I don't have to buy any Guardians) Jetbikes and Dire avengers it is. Or maybe just one unit of Guardians for the embolden. Aha maybe that was the reason they were in the list.
Actually, I'm still trying to puzzle out why they were there. I suspect they offer something specific in certain match-ups, or are just a backfield objective holder with some bodies...
What do you think of the warp spiders in my list? They look very expensive compared to the other units.
Honestly? I use smaller units, usually 5 or 6 with Double Spinner Exarch.
Also wouldnt' I want jet-bikes in bigger units than that to keep the shuriken cannon and warlocks alive?
And pay even more for some marginal units that already cost too much for what they really do? I've clashed heads with others on this topic before, but I believe Jetbikes work best in multiple small units. Doesn't change when you add (a) Warlock(s).
Currently really psyched about: My Cygnar army
My Warmachine Tactics Introduction Guide
RE your list:
What's the point of the three Warlocks? Bodyguard for the Farseer?
Better two bigger Harlequin units than three smaller in my opinion. For one thing, you pay Shadowseers per unit. Also, I personally believe melee units generally need to be big, shooting units should rather be small.
Also, the sheer mass of Dire Avengers and Harlequins scream Doom to me.
Finally, I'm not convinced about mix and match Walkers. The Lance Missile combo is common on Wraithlords because they can't take two identical weapons, Walkers can. If you really think you need lances, take lances, if you don't, stay with missiles. If you feel you need both, than how about splitting the squad in two, one half with missiles only, the other with lances only.
Hope you find any of that helpful. ^^
Currently really psyched about: My Cygnar army
My Warmachine Tactics Introduction Guide
His list works out too small: 1816pts. I think he had a warlock with embolden in the unit and stuck eldrad in the unit to benefit from the reroll to psychic tests.
I think we are looking at the warp spider unit differently then. I don't think it has to kill anything to make up it's points. It just has to tie up the right unit in close combat at the right time and then get away. So the most important thing for them is withdraw so they can get out of the way once they have done their job.
On the subject of mix and match walkers that is actualy intended to be one walker lance and EML one with two lances and one with EML. It's in case I dont face tanks that I take the EMLs. It also saves points. if they are in one unit I can take the hits on the EMLs against tank heavy armies or on the lances against infantry armies.
Three warlocks just to give the seer a reroll on psychic tests. And why not? They may attract some fire
I think I need guide for the lance walkers I need fortune for the avatar. I'm not sure about doom.
Do you think I should be taking kisses for the harlequins?
Last edited by Frimbleglim; 19-05-2012 at 19:37.
Gods in 3.0 D&D play dice with the universe, sometimes throw the dice behind the DM's screen where they cannot be seen and then count as getting the best possible result.
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." -Donnal O'Shea The Poincare Conjecture.
I haven't played Harlequind before, but from what I understand, the Kisses are the whole point of the unit (together with Veil)...
The problem with the Warlocks is, that you could get Runes of Witnessing for just ten points, and not worry about failed psychic tests any more. Among other things.
Still not sure about the mixed walkers, but try it out and let me know how it goes!
Regarding Doom: It increases the damage output by Avengers and Scorpions (against T4 targets) by 50%, and the damage output of Banshees by 66%. Harlequins should be somewhere in between, with S4 on the charge and at least 50% more rending results.
In comparison, the best guide can ever provide is a 50% boost in damage output (on a BS3 unit), and then it will nly ever affect a single friendly unit, while every single Avenger squad you have could participate in a huge doom-fest, and then you could still charge in with all Harlequins and get some more boost out of Doom (if the target unit was worth it, of course; everything but a Deathstar should have crumbled by then).
Currently really psyched about: My Cygnar army
My Warmachine Tactics Introduction Guide
Since you've three heavy support slots available, why don't you take 3 squadrons of 2 walkers?Heavy Support
3 War Walkers, 6x Scatter laser:- 180
3 War Walkers, 3x bright lance 3x Eldar Missile Launcher:- 240
This way you could have:
2x SL walkers
2x BL walkers
2X EML walkers
The issue here is that Bright lances are basically too expensive to be worth it on war walkers. If I guide them then it's fine in terms of damage output so long as I am facing tanks. However even then they are fragile. I felt I needed the extra war walker in the squad to soak up damage.
If on the other had I was facing infantry then the bright lances would be useless. That way I would use the EML and remove the bright lances first.
I don't have the rulebook to hand right now but I think it works that way.
Gods in 3.0 D&D play dice with the universe, sometimes throw the dice behind the DM's screen where they cannot be seen and then count as getting the best possible result.
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." -Donnal O'Shea The Poincare Conjecture.
The point was to have specialized squadrons of WW. As you said, if you face a lot of infantry, the BL on EML/BL walkers will be (almost) useless, but you'll have to shoot it at footmen anyway because of the EML. But having BL on one squadron and EML on another will allow you not to fire an inappropriate weapon at your target. The BL walker will shoot at tanks, and the EML either at tanks or infantry, according to the situation.
If you want to have versatile warwalkers, I think you should place all-EMLs on them, instead of EML+bright lances. Moreover, the EML has a great range, so your walkers won't be exposed.
On the other hand, all-SL walkers are really fine!
Well I think I'll use magnets, try both ways and see what works best.
Gods in 3.0 D&D play dice with the universe, sometimes throw the dice behind the DM's screen where they cannot be seen and then count as getting the best possible result.
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." -Donnal O'Shea The Poincare Conjecture.
I changed my mind and decided to take more of the advise on offer:
HQ
Avatar:- 155
Farseer, Spirit Stones, Jetbike, Doom, Fortune, Singing Spear:- 163
4 Warlocks, Jetbike x4 Singing Spear x4, Embolden:- 197
Elites
7 Harlequins, Death Jester, 4x Harlequins Kiss, Troop Master: Power Sword, Fusion pistol, Shadowseer: Harlequin’s Kiss, Fusion Pistol:- 226
7 Harlequins, Death Jester, 4x Harlequins Kiss, Troop Master: Power Sword, Fusion pistol, Shadowseer: Harlequin’s Kiss, Fusion Pistol:- 226
5 Fire Dragons, Exarch, Firepike, Crack Shot:- 105
Troops
10 Dire Avengers: 120
10 Dire Avengers: 120
10 Dire Avengers: 120
Fast Attack
9 Warp Spiders, Exarch, Additional Death Spinner, Withdraw:- 230
Heavy Support
3 War Walkers, 6x Scatter laser:- 180
Total:- 1842
The warlocks will now take on the anti tank roll. They don't need guide so I now have doom. The harlequins now have kisses.
Last edited by Frimbleglim; 20-05-2012 at 15:34.
Gods in 3.0 D&D play dice with the universe, sometimes throw the dice behind the DM's screen where they cannot be seen and then count as getting the best possible result.
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." -Donnal O'Shea The Poincare Conjecture.
It doesn't sound bad at all. I'd be curious to know how this list will behave on the battlefield.
Just one thing: If I had to play this, I'd try to be careful not to have the seer & his retinue isolated from the army. They're really quick, and it could be tempting to make them rush to an easy target.
Question: What did you use to create that image? Is it just a basic paint program with some fancy images you found/made or is it some kind of program?
I've been trying to find something like this for myself. Battle Chronicler seems to do this sort of thing, but I've found it complex to set up and not sure where to get suitable icons for different unit types...
Everyone Dies. It's the final and only lasting Justice. There's no greater good than Justice; It is said correctly that law exists not for the Just but for the unjust, I bow to no one and I give service only for cause...
It looks like Vassal to me. A very useful tool in learning how to play armies by the way. Anyway, kudo's for building Footdar. They were my first army 12 years ago and I still smile everytime I see Biel Tan colors. I realize that I haven't played Eldar in quite a while but I am wondering why the Spiders are even in the army? It seems like you are paying an insane amount of points for that squad and what they might accomplish. If I remember correctly isn't a Wraithlord with double flamers and a Missile Launcher about 115? I would rather have 2 Wraithlords in your list than a squad of Spiders.
Yes it's Vassal with the 40k module.
You may be right. I just like warp spiders because they can stop an assault squad in it's tracks for a turn, something I have always found to be very useful. I may switch them out for more war walkers, more harlequins or some jetbikes. Depends what will fit in the carry case.
Gods in 3.0 D&D play dice with the universe, sometimes throw the dice behind the DM's screen where they cannot be seen and then count as getting the best possible result.
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." -Donnal O'Shea The Poincare Conjecture.
I just played a game using Vassal and the following list.
HQ
Avatar:- 155
Farseer, Spirit Stones, Jetbike, Doom, Fortune, Singing Spear:- 163
4 Warlocks, Jetbike x4 Singing Spear x4, Embolden:- 197
Elites
7 Harlequins, Death Jester, 4x Harlequins Kiss, Troop Master: Power Sword, Fusion pistol, Shadowseer: Harlequin’s Kiss, Fusion Pistol:- 226
7 Harlequins, Death Jester, 4x Harlequins Kiss, Troop Master: Power Sword, Fusion pistol, Shadowseer: Harlequin’s Kiss, Fusion Pistol:- 226
5 Fire Dragons, Exarch, Firepike, Crack Shot:- 105
Troops
10 Dire Avengers: 120
10 Dire Avengers: 120
Heavy Support
3 War Walkers, 6x Scatter laser:- 180
Total:- 1492
I did badly. The list seems ok though.
Gods in 3.0 D&D play dice with the universe, sometimes throw the dice behind the DM's screen where they cannot be seen and then count as getting the best possible result.
"Absolute precision buys the freedom to dream meaningfully." -Donnal O'Shea The Poincare Conjecture.
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