VC crumble question

[Fruhauf]

If my unit were to lose combat by say 4, and there were only 4 models left the entire unit would then crumble and die after combat resolution is worked out. My question is, would my opponents unit then get a reform or a pursuit?

I theorised no, but I'm not sure. Could someone clarify please!

And secondly, I'm 99% sure this isn't the case, but just in case I could gain a cheeky re-roll bonus from it; If a Corpse Cart granted always strike first to my units within 6" and one of those had Great Weapons, I would then strike on initiative order but as ASF is in effect in coherence with ASL, would I get a re-roll if I had higher initiative? (I'm pretty sure I wouldn't, but technically ASF is in play!)

[Scalebug]

1) Yes, as per Wipeout! on page 53, BRB. (No pursuit move though, but the option of an overrun if they were charging)
2) No re-rolls, as that is part of the the rules for ASF, which was cancelled out by the ASL.

[hamsterwheel]

Yes, they would get to reform or the option to overrun if they charged the same turn. Page 53 under WIPEOUT! Page 57 reinforces this. "If a unit charges into combat and, by the end of that round of close combat, all its enemies have been wiped as as the result of the combat(rather than the pursuit) the unit can choose to make a pursuit move, even with nobody left alive to pursue. This is an overrun move and represents the unit surging forwards, hungry to find more enemies to fight"

When a model has ASF and ASL then they lose the reroll and strike at Initiative.

[Fruhauf]

Cool got it, thanks a lot for quick answers guys.

[Smogg]

If the VC unit crumbles, then it will not allow the enemy to overrun. Here is why:

Close Combat is structured this way:
1. Fight a round of close combat
2. Calculate close combat results
3. Looser takes a break test
4. Flee and pursue

Now the Overrun! rule states:
"If a unit charges into combat, and by the end of that round of close combat, all its enemies have been wiped out as result of the combat (rather than the pursuit) the unit can choose to make a pursuit move, even with no one left alive to pursue. This is an overrun move... "

Before its argued that a round of close combat is a loose term that can mean the whole combat please notice how GW goes through great lengths to make the term clear:

From p48:
"1 FIGHT A ROUND OF CLOSE COMBAT"

From p52 in bold:
"2 CALCULATE CLOSE COMBAT RESULTS"
Once all models engaged in the combat have fought, this concludes that we call 'combat round' or 'round of close combat' "

Clearly the enemy MUST have been wiped out as result of a round of close combat in order to make an overrun move!
By the end of a round of close combat, you don't even know the winner yet unless there was a wipeout so you CANNOT wound unstable units with Combat Resolution at this point!

[Mid'ean]

I disagree. A round of close combat is NOT complete until you are done with step 4. So it can be argued either way. Until FAQ'ed talk it over with your opponent if you think it will be an issue.

[GotrekFan]

+1 to this. I play VC and that's the way I understand it. A round of close combat ends with pursuit/ overrun so it goes like this:-
1. Fight close combat (both sides attack of possible)
2. Calculate scores.
3. Loser takes break test (or crumble/ instability)
4. If loser fails break test or there are no models left in losing unit, then the winner can pursue/ overrun/ reform following normal rules.
5. If loser remains in base to base, continue to next round.


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[Smogg]

I disagree. A round of close combat is NOT complete until you are done with step 4. So it can be argued either way. Until FAQ'ed talk it over with your opponent if you think it will be an issue.

ok so you disagree with the statement in the rulebook?:
From p52:
"2 CALCULATE CLOSE COMBAT RESULTS"
Once all models engaged in the combat have fought, this concludes that we call 'combat round' or 'round of close combat' "

[Mid'ean]

ok so you disagree with the statement in the rulebook?:
From p52:
"2 CALCULATE CLOSE COMBAT RESULTS"
Once all models engaged in the combat have fought, this concludes that we call 'combat round' or 'round of close combat' "

No. I agree with that statement. But it does not mean that is the end of the combat for that unit. Go to Pg 46 and read the "Close combat phase sequence" section. The part about "Resolve each combat completely, INCLUDING ANY FLEE AND PURSUE MOVES, before moving on to the next combat. So combat is NOT done until you have gone thru step 4.

[Smogg]

A combat consist of

1. Fight a round of close combat
2. Calculate close combat results
3. Looser takes a break test
4. Flee and pursue

"A round of close combat" is step 1 of close combat. Obviously each combat involve all steps.

The point is that to overrun you must kill the enemy as result of "a round of close combat" (step 1).

Anyways. I just recommend to read through the sections I referenced.

[GodlessM]

Unless it is in capitals or parenthesis it is not a title for anything, just a choice of words, one which people shouldn't be trying to read into so much. If every single word mattered so much the rules wouldn't make sense. If the term 'round of close combat' was supposed to be something so specific, i.e. just the fighting, then it would have been highlighted as such in some way.

[Smogg]

Unless it is in capitals or parenthesis it is not a title for anything, just a choice of words, one which people shouldn't be trying to read into so much. If every single word mattered so much the rules wouldn't make sense. If the term 'round of close combat' was supposed to be something so specific, i.e. just the fighting, then it would have been highlighted as such in some way.

A round of close combat is step one in capital letters and bold of the close combat summary page 46
A round of close combat is the title on page 48
A round of close combat is in quotations and in bold on page 52

If it is clearly defined in several places in both headers, bold and capital letters, i think it matters.

[GodlessM]

A round of close combat is step one in capital letters and bold of the close combat summary page 46
A round of close combat is the title on page 48
A round of close combat is in quotations and in bold on page 52

If it is clearly defined in several places in both headers, bold and capital letters, i think it matters.

Ok, maybe I wasn't clear enough, and maybe I should have made sure I was considering chances are English is not your first language. By capitals I mean beginning with a capital, i.e. to donate the name of something, not something in all capitals just to make it stand out. And regarding p52, while it is a title there and then, at the part in question, i.e. the overrun rules, it is given no such importance. Put it this way, if the several rounds makes up a 'combat' as a whole, and a 'round' is only the fighting part, what exactly do you call all of what collectively happens in only a single Close Combat phase? Sometimes words are just words and are there to fill in the gaps, they don't always all mean so much, as is the case here.

Just as a note, do you play Vampire Counts?

[bad dice]

Also if you have not jet worked out by how much one side or the other has won how can you have a result of the combat.

But then again yes I think it is totally fair to argue that the enemy has to kill every single last model in a undead whit attacks to be able to reform. Cause beeing unbreakble just aint good enough these days.

[Smogg]

Put it this way, if the several rounds makes up a 'combat' as a whole, and a 'round' is only the fighting part, what exactly do you call all of what collectively happens in only a single Close Combat phase?

It's actually very clearly structured in the rule book.

Sometimes words are just words and are there to fill in the gaps, they don't always all mean so much, as is the case here.

Unless you wrote the rulebook, I find it hard to belive that you can somehow know what text is important and what text is just filling gaps. No offence.

No, english is not my first language.
Yes, I play dark elves and vampire counts.

Are you worried vampire counts and demons will be too powerfull if your can't overrun after crumbling?

Maybe fear cloud your judgement.

[bad dice]

It's actually very clearly structured in the rule book.


Unless you wrote the rulebook, I find it hard to belive that you can somehow know what text is important and what text is just filling gaps. No offence.

No, english is not my first language.
Yes, I play dark elves and vampire counts.

Are you worried vampire counts and demons will be too powerfull if your can't overrun after crumbling?

Maybe fear cloud your judgement.

No I think your just reading in to things that ain't there. Also its been this way for two whole editions I think if they wanted it to change they would be a bit clearer about it two.
Then again it does not really matter what you or I think we will never meet in battle any way so we can both just use the interpretation we think is right I guess.

[T10]

It seems to me that the charging unit is entitled to an overrun because the target Unstable unit is wiped out in close combat, but is not allowed to pursue because Unbreakable units don't flee.

-T10

[Smogg]

It seems to me that the charging unit is entitled to an overrun because the target Unstable unit is wiped out in close combat, but is not allowed to pursue because Unbreakable units don't flee.

1.
If you need to add up combat resolution to determine the winner, then it's not a wipeout. A wipeout deals with winning automatically because you just killed all your oponents models. Once you start counting up combat resolution, its no longer automatic victory and has nothing to do with a wipeout.

2.
Overrun clearly state that you must wipe out your enemies by the end of that round of close combat in order to overrun. So once you move on to combat resolution in order to find out how many skeletons to crumble, its too late. You moved on to step 2: Calculate close combat results. No overrun for you.
No matter how you view the wipeout rule, it reference the overrun rule where everything is spelled out. I don't see any way you can overrun after calculating close combat results.

Of course VC and Demons are strong armies, so I fully understand why most just ignore what is written in the overrun section. Anyway my only purpose was to give people a set of references they can take to their groups or tournaments (before playing), so they have a chance to set things right for the future. I still reccomend my ínitial response on this thread. It really should have everything you need.

[T10]

I did in fact read the thread before posting.

-T10

[Fruhauf]

So in fact, it is still open to debate as to what may happen in individual cases. Up to the discrepancy of the players it would seem.

To me, what Smogg says makes sense, but then again I'm playing with my VC so I was always going to be inclined to go that way.