How to make massive weapons more useful?

[Anthony Case]

I don't mind massive weapons being a niche weapon, but it would be nice if they weren't quite so niche as they currently are. Mushkilla pointed out in this topic that you are pretty much always better off equipping a fighter with two daggers over a massive weapon and making them a little more useful might encourage diversity, especially in gangs like Goliaths.

As I see it there are basically two different paths to making them more useful.

Firstly you could give them an extra bonus to offset their negatives, something that reflects the huge nature of massive weapons. Rules such as making them ignore parries, or giving a bonus when they charge or just during the first round of each combat, such as conferring a -1 attack dice penalty on opponents or +1 combat score bonus.

The other option would be to go in the opposite direction, for massive weapons to represent a much wider variety of two-handed weapons, like bastard swords which aren't particularly unwieldly as the "always lose draws" rule suggests. For example you could allow them to be used with one-hand at a reduced Strength and with an Initiative penalty while using them two-handed would not confer a penalty, thus giving them a bit of versatility.

I'm quite torn on which to favour myself. I don't think the first option makes a lot of sense fluff-wise, since why would opponents fear dealing with a massive weapon yet not suffer a similar effect from a power fist? The second option would open up more modelling opportunities but you also lose what gives massive weapons character, they would become merely "slightly bigger weapons" rather than "massive weapons".

I'm curious to know which direction you guys prefer and if you have any specific house rules for them yourself that you favour?

[Catferret]

Stealing Brutal Strike from the 3.0 tweaks on Eastern Fringe might work. Grants a reroll on one of the user's attack dice. Represents just battering through your opponent's guard with brute force. Brutal Strikes and Parries cancelled each other out still.

Simple and easy to remember mechanic. Makes sense background wise. Gives the weapon a boost without needing recosted.

[Demoulius]

Uh... To be honest I dont think the weapon has any problems... AT ALL!

Friend of mine has a goliath gang with some good advances. When he wins combat (which he does) that S5 (or S6 ) attack thats hitting your ganger is really ruining your day they are also pretty good for hitting stationary objects like water stills

To be honest the +2S represents the "battering through your opponent's guard with brute force" fluffy part quite well. In my opinion anyway.

[Malo]

I think the issue arose after looking at the statistics of massive weapons vs pretty much anything else. The thread on Yakromunda has quite a lot of number crunching on the whole subject. Sure if you have the perfect ganger with high WS, extra attacks and some combat skills, a Massive Weapon might be an excellent choice. But for all those meta gamers out there, it's obviously not.

[AsleepByDay]

An advantage I have noticed when sparing with a single two handed weapon against an opponent with two singled handed weapons is the ability to return to stance faster.

So perhaps unless charged characters equipped with massive weapons always count as charging or multiple models attacking them do not receive the ganging up bonus.

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It's fairly easy to use the extended range of the double handed weapon to use 'feint retreat and kill' against a less skilled opponent.

so perhaps make them bully weapons: models equipped with a massive weapon add the difference between there's and the targets weapon skill to their 'score' unless the target model has a higher weapon skill or both models are equipped with massive weapons.

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Fighting with a two handed weapon requires a tighter stance than that required by two weapons I can see the model with two weapons take a lot more minor hits and cuts as they close.

so perhaps models equipped with a massive weapon may make one roll to wound their opponent at unmodified strength if they loose combat after resolving the victors attacks even if they are killed.

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What I feel would be the most realistic change would be: massive weapons give plus one strength and require both hands to use, no other special rules.

[simonr1978]

I think the rules for massive weapons are OK as they are myself. The easiest way to make them a more viable option I reckon would be to drop the costing down in line with regular swords. I don't think this would unbalance things as by buying a regular sword you gain a more versatile weapons load overall being able to go into HtH with a mix of differing weapons rather than just the massive weapon and don't suffer from the negative "Draws" special rule, while the Massive weapon's +2 Str bonus if you hit gives a reasonable counter to the disadvantages of carrying it in the first place.

Make them 10 Credits rather than 15 and a few more people might pick them for something other than modelling/aesthetic reasons.

[Anthony Case]

I don't think price changes would do a whole lot really. If you take a massive weapon you're losing the potential +1 attack dice bonus and the "Always lose draws" is effectively a -1 combat score penalty as well, both are big downsides that isn't offset by just the +1 Strength bonus it offers over a club.

An advantage I have noticed when sparing with a single two handed weapon against an opponent with two singled handed weapons is the ability to return to stance faster.

It's fairly easy to use the extended range of the double handed weapon to use 'feint retreat and kill' against a less skilled opponent.

Fighting with a two handed weapon requires a tighter stance than that required by two weapons I can see the model with two weapons take a lot more minor hits and cuts as they close.

What I feel would be the most realistic change would be: massive weapons give plus one strength and require both hands to use, no other special rules.

Yeah the official rules seem to only represent ginormous axes, which is nice rules-wise because it makes them feel unique, but currently there aren't any rules to represent the rest of the two-handed weapons which aren't terribly unwieldy when used with both hands and can still be used one-handed. A good example are the big one-handed maces the new goliaths have which I'm guessing most people count as clubs, if the massive weapon rules weren't quite so extreme then it's an easy way of adding more diversity.



I think something like the rules below would make them much more useful and flushes well with the power axe rules, but you do somewhat lose some of their character.

One-handed: +1 Strength, -1 Initiative in draws.
Two-handed: +2 Strength.

[Bouncing]

In my campaign all most all 2 handed weapons give Reach. Reach canceling out all nondamaging of the weapon abilities of non reach weapons. They still do have teh -1 to Init though.

This makes 2 handers better against people that duel weapon but not as effective against people that use no weapons. Kinda making a paper rock scissors effect.

By the way Thanks you Anthony for putting out all that work that you have done on necromunda. I have copied so much of it and used it in my campaign. So thank you for making it available.