Empire 8th Army Book in Comparison to other 8th Edition Army Books

[Fieos]

So now that the book has been out for a while; how do you feel it ranks with the rest of the released 8th edition books? Math-hammering, table experiences, theory.. bring it all to the table.

[Jericho]

Haven't played a game with it myself just yet, but from what I've heard talking to local gamers who have been using it, the results are fine. Scott plays an infantry heavy list with a smattering of artillery and he has been tabling dwarf armies with impunity from what I can gather. The points costs and force organization moves more or less cancel each other out, and there are many new ways to play around with buffs via the detachment rules to help offset some of those higher costs. I'd say it's a push in terms of effectiveness, but a big boost in terms of the rules jiving with 8th edition standards.

The contentious issues are still the Demigryphs, Steam Tank and Mortar. Many people just plain don't like Demigryphs regardless of their effectiveness on the tabletop The Steam Tank is still a damn good unit and has had a number of old weaknesses go away... but it does have to be careful since it's not T10 anymore. Finally, the Mortar was undeniably too damn good in the previous incarnation and the debate as to whether the nerfed version is still worth taking will rage on I'm sure. Personally I don't like it, but then again I never roll 6's unless I'm making 5+ invulnerable saves on Terminators (or rolling Ld checks), so I don't think I'll bother with it.

Honorable mention also goes to Flagellants, who used to be the best option for Watchtower. They took a fair number of hits to gain +1WS and move to Special. Again, they are still an interesting option, but less of a no-brainer than before.

[MR. GRUMPY]

Flagellants was never a no-brainer, always hotly contested. And now they are just plain awful even for the fans.

[Jericho]

It's entirely possible that the unit of 20 in Core was more popular around here than anywhere else (including teh Interwebs?) but it seemed like a decent option to me! I'm glad I never spent the money on the 2-3 boxes I was thinking of getting, that's for sure! More money for Goldswords and Demigryphs...

[The Low King]

Flagellants was never a no-brainer, always hotly contested. And now they are just plain awful even for the fans.

As a fan of them i disagree, i think they are still good.

[DaemonReign]

I've played one 4000 point game against the new Empire Book and my over-all verdict (as was my impression also when first reading the new book) is that Empire has become a tougher opponant with Cruddace's book. It's sort elusive how that happened seeing as the changes paraded around the interwebz are mostly rants about all the 'nerfs' one can point one's finger at.

The one major boost the army did get, that I can definately put my finger on, is the new Detachment rule (regardless of how you interpret the 'Steadfast-mess'). As far as I am concerned this is the change that prompted the general point-increase to troops (forget about 'Hold the Line' and everything else - that stuff's just icing on the cake!).

Speaking of Flagelants, it's probably true that they're a bit worse in smaller games now. I don't care one bit about that though to be perfectly honest. My Empire opponant has about 100 Flaggies and we play the sort of games where he'll be able to use all of them - and that, my friends, will be something entirely different to deal with now that the cap of unit size is but a memory.

I can't really compare it to Ogres (because we don't have that Army) but this new Empire book definately seems just as balanced as Vampire Counts. The difference being that the Empire book has a few more 'beauty-spots' where a more seasoned Designer would perhaps have detailed stuff a little better.. I don't know..

[Chaoslord Faros The Dark]

I have played against the book twice and it seems fairly powerful, i am even considering starting a empire army myself.

[Boreas_NL]

I'd say (again) that the book is a bitter disapointment. So many changes and loss of options that weren't required (the loss of freedom of choice is stupendous as only a limited selection of units is still viable/competitive and are almost mandatory) and I'm not even starting on the obvious nerfs (of which there are many)... Sure, there are a few nice, new things (Witch Hunters and Demi Gryphs come to mind) but still the book could have been much, much better...

Overall the book is more bland (even with the addition of the Wacky Wizard Mobiles) than the last few Empire books. They should have concentrated on the fluff instead on inventing silly new stuff... The couple of weeks preceding the release of the new Empire book there were a lot of rumours going about, sadly, it turned out that all the cool rumours were just rumours while all the sucky ones were put into print.

I don't really care how it compares to other 8th edition books as I don't play with those. The Empire isn't what it used to be, and that sucks! Ah well, in about five or six years we might get a new book, right?

Don't tell me you didn't see this coming, right? It has been a while since there was a decent thread to complain about the Empire book...

[Wesser]

I agree with Boreas

Generally fluff is something thats been pushed into the background. It was the only minor failing of the VC book too. Oddly the old Bretonnian book, which was a huuuge let-down in terms of playability back then, clawed some lost ground back by having the best fluff of any book ever written.

For every book now there's better fluff written for them in the main rulebook...mainly because the fluff in the army book is reduced to the bestiary and geography copied from the last book.

So all the background sucked.... and maybe thats the reason wizardmobiles are the most idiotic unit thats ever been made.....

Cruddace added demigryphs and 2 mobiles, but instead ruined 4 other units. Pistoliers and mortars are hot contenders for the "Worst Unit in Warhammer"... I think even waywatchers are laughing.


Not everything is horrible, but it all seems so sloppy.

Engineers are only good using hellblasters or pidgeon bombs. Wonder if he thought anyone would use them to power a cannon?

BS shooting is close to worthless. Only outriders are worth a glance.

Steadfast and several other points make detachments a sloppily written rule..



I could go on and on....

[Urgat]

Generally fluff is something thats been pushed into the background.

A cookie to you

[Wesser]

A cookie to you

Hehe, wondered if anyone would spot it...hidden as it was

[Jind_Singh]

It's a tough book - in that there is always more toys I want to cram in my list than I get points for! I been playing the book pretty steady since it came out and all I can say it's still too early to see were it's going to end up.

This week I went with all infantry and beat some Dark Elves at Storm of Magic - but I did lose my ENTIRE Empire force (bar 3 fleeing Crossbows and 5 fleeing Halberds!). Today was an all mounted list vs Dwarf and again they did well.

SOme units LEAP out as amazing - Hell Blaster with an Engineer is golden, Steam Tank is so much better than it was before. Characters are good and well priced - but they are so good that it's easy to hit 1000 points before you realize that all you bought for a 1000 points was characters!

The toughest issue, by far, is coming up with army lists.

I still say it's too early to for the jury to hit a verdict but by no means is this a bad book - it'll hold it's own vs the other 8th ed books - but it's not an abusive book by any means.

[Enigmatik1]

I don't really care how it compares to other 8th edition books as I don't play with those. The Empire isn't what it used to be, and that sucks! Ah well, in about five or six years we might get a new book, right?

I can't comment on the rest of your statements as I haven't played our Empire yet but this one struck home with me.

There are still things about the Tomb King book I can't stand but I've come to the realization that the book isn't quite as awful as I originally thought. The kicker here for me is that I largely face 7E power armies and after my original outrage, I recognized that I did not have the correct frame of reference for comparison because of how silly some 7E armies are capable of being. Now, the Empire might be able to match that silliness now. I honestly don't know, but Tomb Kings generally can't...but that isn't my point.

I simply don't think it's entirely fair to entirely judge this, or any 8E book, against broken 7E armies anymore. Believe me, I can relate to how you feel (it took me a long time to come to this point...I'm an old dog, after all...lol) as that's pretty much all I face too and it can be very frustrating...especially at first. I can also say that it does eventually get better.

[Jind_Singh]

I don't really care how it compares to other 8th edition books as I don't play with those. The Empire isn't what it used to be, and that sucks! Ah well, in about five or six years we might get a new book, right?

It boggles my mind sometimes about the posters who lurk on Warseer - mind blowing in fact!

I mean who sees a thread title:

"Empire 8th Army book in Comparison to other 8th Ed Army books"

Has NEVER played the other books and yet feels inclined to provide us with their view as they can't contribute to the discussion with any value what so ever! Trolls should stay were they belong - either in caves or bridges!

No wonder Warseer has the reputation for being Whineseer!

8th Ed Empire book is another fine example of 8th ed books and if the trend continues this is, hands down, the best edition of Warhammer to date (and I been playing since the 2nd ed when High Elves and Goblins were the in the 1st ever starter set box) as:

Orcs & Goblins
Tomb Kings
Ogre Kingdoms
Vampire Counts
Empire

Storm of Magic
Blood in the Badlands


Provide us with a level playing field. Each book has it's own flaws and WTF moments - and are by no means perfect - but they all have ENOUGH internal and external balance that games played between players and those books are close affairs and equally skilled players can take on the other books.

From the books Tomb Kings has the most delicate approach as they are very much a thinkers army but can still produce some incredible builds - and are by no means a wasted army. Ogres perhaps got a little too much of the good stuff, but Empire & Vampires are excellent as both books can be powerful but it's hard to break them unless you play 4000 points and up.

All the books, fluffwise, do not stand up to some of the older books as there isn't much new and exciting stuff but I think this is a deliberate move from GW rather than pure laziness as it seems they are doing their best to wipe out all traces of the backstory we've had for years - by completely removing all trace and mention of the Storm of Chaos - it's been exorcised in ALL 8th ed books, including the rulebook, and I think once they do enough army books they will be taking the story elsewhere - my gut feeling is that when we see the Warriors of Chaos book it'll restart the storyline again.

Having said that while they didn't want to give new background event stories they could have at least delved into the character of the armies a bit deeper and explore stuff we don't normally find in the books - like looking at typical settlements of our races with nice illustrations and tidbits of information.


Things that work well with the new book

1) Hellblaster and Engineer combo - while expensive it's certainly effective! I find that the gun can finally do what it was intended to - really protect the flanks or stall the enemy advance - as no one would want to get into that 24" range. I have yet to lose a gun to breakdown - they all died in close combat - and they all make their points back, and then some, as even if they don't inflict damage to the enemy units they are taken up a lot of thought in the other players mind - which is fantastic as it allows me to think about more pressing concerns. Any time they waste thinking about my gun is less time they spend thinking about the moves I'm making!
Only downside to the HB is that it's a bit too good - and it's going to be a challenge to some to leave this out of their army lists
2) Steam Tank - was a bit puzzled by the direction they took with the tank when I read about, having played them in the field I can only wax lyrical about just how much better this beast has gotten! Were as before it was pretty brick sitting on the battlefield once it took 3-4 wounds, now it can function (albeit in a crippled fashion) with multiple wounds. The new misfire chart enabled me to carry on chugging away even with 8 wounds yesterday and it remained a threat to my opponent - in fact it still worried him enough to throw a cannon ball at it to kill it off as I was able to generate 1 steam point with a solid chance of firing my cannon at point black range - instead of hitting my Knights in the flank - that move cost him the game as my mounted army was able to grind down three dwarf blocks! So it's taking up mindshare in the opponents head - which is fantastic! Again some players may find it hard to leave off their lists!
3) Flagellants - Jury is out - while I like what they do on paper I've not seen them live to make it to combat - even my unit of 30 was destroyed pretty quick - so unless I devote more resources to protecting them (lore of life for e.g.) I'm not too sure what to make of the mad men.
4) Witch Hunter - one of the BIGGEST surprises of the book for me - what I thought was just a random character they tacked on to flesh out the book, this cool looking mini has taken me by surprise! I used one, for the 1st time, vs Dark Elves in Storm of Magic and he just made me weep with joy - MR2 doesn't sound great but it kept my unit alive for 2 turns longer than had he not been there - and enabled me to stall his forces long enough to squeeze out a win by holding on to my 2nd fulcrum. His actual special rules never came into effect, nor do I think they really well, as while they sound cool the short range and limited mobility of the character will pretty much mean that his only purpose is to protect the unit from fear/terror and add MR (Sorry, magic resistance).
5) Warrior Priests - when I did the theory hammer these were not priests - they were Gods!! But now having played multiple games I can say that they are really good but not Gods afterall - just men! The problem is that you run out of power dice VERY fast - power dice management is crucial as there is a lot of units that demand attention.
Recently my trick is to keep them lean and mean - just give them a 2+ or 3+ save and let them hang out with units to give them hatred - and then when and if I need that bound prayer I'll throw some heavy dice at the priest to give me the edge when needed the most. For normal stand up combats were I just need to hold the line I don't bother upgrading the troops - save it for the crucial combats only.
6) Arch Lector - surprisingly good and price effective - he excels on the War Alter of course but you need to invest in to a 4+ ward save for him as well as a decent armour save. The War Alter is a lot stronger for me than before as it's got a decent bound spell, the hatred bubble is HUGE as it affects characters, and it helps with power dice management thanks to the War Alter ability to affect all troops within range of the prayer effect. But if you do take the War Alter it does dictate the army plan quite heavily as it's best used to support 2 solid blocks of infantry left and right of it - so that in turn dictates your unit choices. But if you want to play with rank & file this is a good way to go. The nice thing is that even if the Lector dies the War Alter is still a great carnage unit thanks to a decent stat line and built in ward save - vs the Ogres the Lead Belchers destroyed the poor lector but were wiped out in return by the revenge charge - and then I was able to carry on and start hitting the ogres from their flanks and rear.
7) Mounted armies - made a savage come back for me as I finally have the tools to take on foot troops with my Knights! Enter the Reiksguard, Griffin Lord, and the Runefang! Outriders provide me with a solid firebase, the Steam Tank is the big 'shoot me' distraction, the Griffin lord is just horrendous in the damage he pushes out - and the Reiksguard...dear lord the Reiksguard! These Knights have just torn people a new one - being stubborn with a 1+ save is HUGE! Add in a captain and a standard of discipline...now we're cooking! My current game has seen me take:

9 Reiksguard, full command, banner of discipline
Warrior Priest, heavy armour, shield, barded horse
Captain, plate, shield, lance, mask of EEeee!!
Grand Master, shield, Runefang, other tricksters shard

And just sit back and watch this unit go to town!

It's a points investment, but it's effective. When points is an issue I drop the Grand Master and 1 Knight - but still a great unit. The core Knights are ok, Inner Circle is a delight as they remain core and allow me a 2nd magic banner - but do be wary with the Knights of the White Wolf - I have found that the extra point of armor is a life saver.

Pistoliers, sadly, have become the new snotlings of the Empire book - as in they look fun, have great importance in my heart - but sadly have no use being present on the battlefield unless your opponent allows you to take them for free....they are that bad!

Short range, not effective at shooting, useless in combat - no idea how to make this unit worthwhile - sure my friend says just ride around the flanks and shoot people with the pistols to distract them - but they are distracting as a fly is to an elephant - who occasionally may have to shake an ear or swish his trunk - but will for the most part ignore the poor fly.

8) State Troops - now here is where the theory hammer meets real games fell apart from me. The slight points increase in the troopers means that we can't just field cheap and expendable hordes like with the previous book - and to make the troopers work they need character support. But the issue is when you do this it will take away from character support to the Knights, magic, or engineer school - and the characters themselves mean that very easily you can hit 800 points of supporting characters - but when you've just spend 800 points you can't call that support - it's an army of characters!!!

I have found that I needed to scale back the setting - and stuck with just bare bones priest and captain (with armor options) to try to keep my expenses down - but for 2 rank and file units that just under 300 points of characters - and then you have around 700-1000 points of statetroops - all of a sudden there isn't much more in points to buy the army! This is were the headache begins for me with Empire in 8th ed setting as the list writing is about accepting concessions to the mental image of how you wanted the army to be.

9) Warmachines - dear Sigmar the artillery! The rocket battery is my personal fave from the 4 - one game it wiped out TWENTY Dark Elf spearmen from a horde unit of 50 - and then the mortar killed another 8! But while the machines are good they also hamper you - 3 machines and 1-2 engineers is just under 500 points -and it's much harder to baby sit and safeguard all those vulnerable assets - especially with a lot of the scenarios that crop up in the rule book - but I've been finding it hard to drop them from my list! I think I'll settle for cannon, hell blaster, and rocket battery with 2 engineers - and leave the poor mortar at home unless playing with my massed infantry army. For one of my games I want to try double rockets and mortar - no cannon/blaster - and deploy them behind my lines and advance with the foot troops while I send a barrage of overhead artillery from the safety of the back of my lines!
Oh - and Hellblaster no longer have the 'multiple shot' rule is HUGE as it's hitting pretty reliably even at long range!


Other stuff

Huntsmen become my new stars as well, gotten cheaper and moved to special so I can take multiple units - they are an excellent unit. Overlooked, but just as good, have been normal archers - I like to take a small detachment and use them as a skirmish screen to protect my core blocks from incoming missile fire. The new demi-gryphs and wizard contraptions are still theory hammer for me - but my mate swears by them. I need to use them before I can make the judgement call on them.


All in all, in summary, while we was expecting more from the book we certainly didn't get less!!

[Confessor_Atol]

Nice summary Jind. My primary opponent has been running the new Empire for the last 4 or 5 games against my ogres. Everything you mentioned is entirely true. The engineer powered hellblaster is scary, and stubborn 1+ knights are really difficult to deal with. The huntsmen have been suprisngly useful too.

The one thing that I've been savagely disappointed about is the rate at which state troops die. I know mornfangs are the "uber", but when they hit 60 halberdiers with two warrior priests (and buffed by the cart) the MFs seem to chew through them without breaking a sweat. I keep telling him that shadow magic is the way to go but he hasn't used it yet. Also, his cannons have been near useless recently so my MFs are hitting at full strength, but I'd expect to loose at least a few. Next time we play, he's promised to run all cav.

So as an empire opponent, I love the new book but think it'll have a very steep learning curve. Also the magic synergies are entirely necessary/not optional/should never leave home without. I can't wait to see what other people come up with.

[Petey]

The book is awesome. I feel it accomplishes the fluff better than ever before.

If you read teh warhammer novels, the old fluff, or even the big red book, it always tells you that magic and magic items are rare, that the empire wins its wars because of Men, willing to lay down their lives in sacrifice against all the evil in the world.

You can do that now.

I'm hard pressed to want to give any of my characters magic items, when I could simply buy another warrior priest or witch hunter to support them.
The State troops become inspired when you give them captains, priests and hunters. Amazing in the field (let alone the greatsworders).

And if that's not your thing, you aren't saddled with it. You Can do a wizard/magic list, with great items and spells.

The book provides for a lot of flexibility in design, and none of the options are worthless. As impressive as all that is, it's on the same playing level as the other 8th ed books. I don't think it out strips them or is weak against them. It is a model for how the armies should all be designed

[Gradek]

I am as of yet not sold on the new Empire book. In terms of power level with 8th, it is firmly in the middle (not a bad thing). My issue is that the army may have been made too dependent on synergies and since we have average initiative, I worry that in the games we are striking second that our synergies will have been killed before we can use them. It does seem though that the army may work best as a defensive line with a few flanking units.

[Souppilgrim]

My lists have become much more "elite" unit style than they were in 7th. I find it hard not to start every list (competitive lists) with a level 4, at least 3 demigryphs and a stank. It's really hard to gauge it against the other 8th books so far.

[Private_SeeD]

damn, due to lack of sleep thought this was Empire tactic's thread


Sent from my Omni tool via the Sol System Mass Relay

[vinush]

I've had great success with the book so far. Vs O&G I mangaged a narrow win, vs VC I got a win outright (around 500 VPs difference!).

I've not played against ogres or TK yet, but should get a game in over the next few weeks against them both.

THE \/ince