Empire 8th Army Book in Comparison to other 8th Edition Army Books

[GodlessM]

I'm very curious; people claim that the new book has less effective builds, but exactly how many effective builds did the old book have? Every single list I saw do well had Waltar, Stank, 2 Mortars, 2 Cannons, Engineer, Level 4 Life/Shadow, BSB, add Flagellants/Halberdiers/Greatswords to flavour. So I count 1. I count 1 now as well. I'm seeing no difference here.

As a note, saying you won a tournament with 2 war machines no tank and a General of the Empire isn't a valid argument; there are always exceptions to everything and especially when said exceptions are out of context and missing most of the important details.

[Askari]

I'm very curious; people claim that the new book has less effective builds, but exactly how many effective builds did the old book have? Every single list I saw do well had Waltar, Stank, 2 Mortars, 2 Cannons, Engineer, Level 4 Life/Shadow, BSB, add Flagellants/Halberdiers/Greatswords to flavour. So I count 1. I count 1 now as well. I'm seeing no difference here.

You're missing the people screaming in horror that there's no effective builds.

[yabbadabba]

I've always used them for war machine hunting and, given that they haven't changed, will probably continue to do so. They'll take out a cannon in the same time as a Captasus for about 25 points less. Less tactically useful on the whole (because they have to ride around stuff rather than flying over it) but that's why you get the discount. They're perhaps less cost-effective than Huntsmen in the same role, but I think that's a function of the premium one pays for S4 shooting.

I've thought about that - pistolliers do that job so well, but I think the Captain on Pegasus allows me just a little more flexibility.

However as I -play in a campaign, I can't put one in every army so the pistolliers will have to come out and play!

[Wesser]

I've thought about that - pistolliers do that job so well, but I think the Captain on Pegasus allows me just a little more flexibility.

However as I -play in a campaign, I can't put one in every army so the pistolliers will have to come out and play!

Eh? Pistoliers can't do anything m8. 5 pistoliers against a repeater boltthrower or a dwarf warmachine? I think the odds are with the warmachine crew.... also they are lousy at shooting...They are good for absolutely nothing

[theshoveller]

Eh? Pistoliers can't do anything m8. 5 pistoliers against a repeater boltthrower or a dwarf warmachine? I think the odds are with the warmachine crew.... also they are lousy at shooting...They are good for absolutely nothing

I have 10 attacks (WS3 S3 T3), you have 3 attacks (WS4, S3, T3-4). I have the charge and a musician. I'm probably going to win this combat, on static combat res if nothing else. Even if you don't break, the war machine remains neutralised. The power of hyperbole apparently affects your dice rolls.

EDIT - but this is a tangent.

[yabbadabba]

Eh? Pistoliers can't do anything m8. 5 pistoliers against a repeater boltthrower or a dwarf warmachine? I think the odds are with the warmachine crew.... also they are lousy at shooting...They are good for absolutely nothing

That's up to you. I can find uses for them.

[Jind_Singh]

I have 10 attacks (WS3 S3 T3), you have 3 attacks (WS4, S3, T3-4). I have the charge and a musician. I'm probably going to win this combat, on static combat res if nothing else. Even if you don't break, the war machine remains neutralised. The power of hyperbole apparently affects your dice rolls.

EDIT - but this is a tangent.

Actually you only have SIX attacks as only six models can attack a warmachine and mounted counts as 2 models per figure - so 3 men and 3 horses - but you do get the charge bonus.

six attacks = 3 hits, 1.5 wounds - so ideally one crewmen dead - you win by 1 - Elves might hold - but next turn they die! Even if the Elves kill a horsemen and don't lose any you still win by 1 for the musician - so either the crew will flee or, as mentioned above, the machine is kept in combat one more turn and won't be able to shoot - and no one can shoot at the horsemen as they are locked in combat - which is great as in the Dark Elf player turn you want to win combat and do a free reform so they can charge right away in their next turn WITHOUT getting shot at first!

Elves kill one horsemen - the horse should kill at least

[Cambion Daystar]

I have 10 attacks (WS3 S3 T3), you have 3 attacks (WS4, S3, T3-4). I have the charge and a musician. I'm probably going to win this combat, on static combat res if nothing else. Even if you don't break, the war machine remains neutralised. The power of hyperbole apparently affects your dice rolls.

EDIT - but this is a tangent.

You only have 6 attacks (3 of the horse, 3 of the riders).
Vs dwarf warmachines: usually have 4 crewmembers, for a total of 5 attacks (and usually Stand and shoot with a brace of pistols @ BS4). On average, you hit with 3 -> 0.83 wounds . They hit back with 4 attacks, hit with 2.66, wound with 1.33 and that gives 1.1 wounds. You win because of charge and/or musician. Next turn it gets better because you still have same amount of attacks , and the dwarfs one less.
Vs empire warmachines: Charge, 6 attacks, 3 hits, 1.5 wound, strike back: 3 attacks, 1.5 hit, 0.5 wound. You win combat by 3 and probably run them down.

[theshoveller]

Actually you only have SIX attacks as only six models can attack a warmachine and mounted counts as 2 models per figure - so 3 men and 3 horses - but you do get the charge bonus.

"Although a cavalry model has two sets of characteristics, one for the rider and one for the mount, it is treated in all respects as a single model..." (BRB, p.82). The rules for assaulting a war machine make an exception for Monstrous Cavalry. The only place I can find the "cavalry count as two models" exception is in the mechanics for the Regrowth spell.

[snyggejygge]

8th Ed Empire book is another fine example of 8th ed books and if the trend continues this is, hands down, the best edition of Warhammer to date (and I been playing since the 2nd ed when High Elves and Goblins were the in the 1st ever starter set box)

Bit ot, played since that starter box as well, it was however 4:th edition & NOT 2:nd edition

As for the new Empire book, I don't play Empire myself, but a friend & regular opponent of mine does, & I must say that he is very excited about this book, only 1 game so far against him, but imo the army felt balanced & not weak at all. He fielded multiple naked characters & the units felt harder to break than ever with cold blooded & the single helblaster with engineer devastated a full Gor unit to be next to useless in just 2 shooting phase!

[magnus ironblood]

i've had good success against armies of the 8th edition orcs and goblins but havn't realy played any other 8th edition armies, but i think theyt realy should have included a unit with a basic ward save (apart from the luminarik of course)

[Tuttivillus]

i've had good success against armies of the 8th edition orcs and goblins but havn't realy played any other 8th edition armies, but i think theyt realy should have included a unit with a basic ward save (apart from the luminarik of course)

They did. Swordsmen.

[bad dice]

i've had good success against armies of the 8th edition orcs and goblins but havn't realy played any other 8th edition armies, but i think theyt realy should have included a unit with a basic ward save (apart from the luminarik of course)

Why? cause all armies have units whit a ward save??
I don't get it

I like the book a lot. Sure there are bad choices in there but as Mark rosewater once pointed out. You need to be able to make the wrong choice to learn to make good choices.

I still use about the same army its just a little smaler now. And to be honist I did not notice it in play that much.
I still am a little shock that detachments now cause panic tough .
On the other hand stubborn and hatred carrying over is great.

[Scythe]

I like the book a lot. Sure there are bad choices in there but as Mark rosewater once pointed out. You need to be able to make the wrong choice to learn to make good choices.

While I can understand one or two misses during army design, the Empire book has a few obvious ones which should have never made the final cut. And you don't need a degree in rocket science to spot them either. Problem is, quite a few of them are in the core selections. Handgunners and crossbowmen, for example, already were poor choices before, and only got worse. Free company simply don't match up compared to the cheaper spearmen. Swordsmen don't match up to halberdiers or spearmen due to their pts cost. That's half the core choices right there. Sad thing is, they could have easily fixed that with minor pts adjustments for those units. In special, you have mortars which have lost all possible roles in the army, as they simply don't match up compared to other choices, either in the same army book or to war machines in other army books. Yes, they needed a nerf. But the pendulum swung too far. Also in special, pistoliers are still searching for a proper job to do. They could have benefited from a small boost, even if it was as simple as allowing them to gain +1 attack for their double pistols.

Don't get me wrong, the new book is not terrible, and I believe it can be played effectively. It also made the right calls in a lot of situations; like the changes in warrior priests and lectors by removing their ridicules bonus dispel dice. Still, with a couple of minor changes, the book would have been a lot better.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

...and all of that without ever becoming OP or favouring gunlines. None of which I believe any critic ever wanted.

As to comparing this book in practice with others, I sadly cannot really add much. Wish I could get more games in but the guys are all rather too busy currently to play games.

[bad dice]

While I can understand one or two misses during army design, the Empire book has a few obvious ones which should have never made the final cut. And you don't need a degree in rocket science to spot them either. Problem is, quite a few of them are in the core selections. Handgunners and crossbowmen, for example, already were poor choices before, and only got worse. Free company simply don't match up compared to the cheaper spearmen. Swordsmen don't match up to halberdiers or spearmen due to their pts cost. That's half the core choices right there. Sad thing is, they could have easily fixed that with minor pts adjustments for those units. In special, you have mortars which have lost all possible roles in the army, as they simply don't match up compared to other choices, either in the same army book or to war machines in other army books. Yes, they needed a nerf. But the pendulum swung too far. Also in special, pistoliers are still searching for a proper job to do. They could have benefited from a small boost, even if it was as simple as allowing them to gain +1 attack for their double pistols.

Don't get me wrong, the new book is not terrible, and I believe it can be played effectively. It also made the right calls in a lot of situations; like the changes in warrior priests and lectors by removing their ridicules bonus dispel dice. Still, with a couple of minor changes, the book would have been a lot better.

Aint that the truth whit a lot of armies

I mean for O&G you have NG whit nets, Savage Orc bigones, wolf riders the rest is carp
Ogres got iron guts

You can't have a best choise whitout a good choise.
In fact in the old book it was even worse, that was swordmen all the way to the bank and that was it.
At lest now helbards en spears need to be considered.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Aint that the truth whit a lot of armies

That makes it even worse. Sloppy work is no justification for even more sloppy work.

You can't have a best choise whitout a good choise. In fact in the old book it was even worse, that was swordmen all the way to the bank and that was it.
At lest now helbards en spears need to be considered.

We're not talking about best choices, bad dice, and in the old book it was much better since everything was used. You used Swordsmen, GodlessM used Flagellants, a league buddy of mine used all Knights, on W-E Halberdiers seemed to be most popular and I used all of them except Spearmen. In addition, small units of Crossbowmen were quite useful for killing chaff. They still are albeit at a higher price but that's besides the point.

The salient point is that we would have wished not for one obvious best choice but a better internal balance that allows people to use all core elements with about the same chance of success. I want equally good choices.

[The bearded one]

In fact in the old book it was even worse, that was swordmen all the way to the bank and that was it.
At lest now helbards en spears need to be considered.

Halberds were a fine choice in the previous book.

[Scythe]

Aint that the truth whit a lot of armies

That is and has never been an excuse. Other armies would benefit just as well from equal choices.

You can't have a best choise whitout a good choise.
In fact in the old book it was even worse, that was swordmen all the way to the bank and that was it.
At lest now helbards en spears need to be considered.

Nonsense. The goal shouldn't be to present a best choice, but to present equally valid choices.
Whatever the situation was in the previous book is hardly relevant (and I disagree with your sentiment on that matter; multiple core choices were viable enough; though it had similar issues as the current book). What is relevant is that all current core choices could easily have been as valid as the other, but they are not, for some reason. This is not really Empire specific; the same is true for a lot of armies. It is very noticeable in Empire though.

That makes it even worse. Sloppy work is no justification for even more sloppy work.



We're not talking about best choices, bad dice, and in the old book it was much better since everything was used. You used Swordsmen, GodlessM used Flagellants, a league buddy of mine used all Knights, on W-E Halberdiers seemed to be most popular and I used all of them except Spearmen. In addition, small units of Crossbowmen were quite useful for killing chaff. They still are albeit at a higher price but that's besides the point.

The salient point is that we would have wished not for one obvious best choice but a better internal balance that allows people to use all core elements with about the same chance of success. I want equally good choices.

Seconded.

Halberds were a fine choice in the previous book.

In 8th edition they were. In 7th edition not so much.

[Drongol]

This may be me, but I would honestly prefer if the "standard" units were slightly discounted. It would be interesting to see things like Empire Halberdiers and Ogre Bulls be somewhat more efficient than the other options, for example, if only because the "best" armies would start looking like the "fluffiest" ones.

I'm really not bothered by the Empire book, mind you. Sure, gunlines are (even more) dead, but that's a good thing. Now, you can have your big units of Halberdiers/Spears (hey, look, the preferred weapon of the Empire and the preferred weapon of untrained infantry everywhere!) backed up by either Flagellants or Greatswords and various support units. Alternatively, you can take the Knights of the Holy Cannonball, which is actually a rather effective build, and somewhat fluffy as well.