Empire 8th Army Book in Comparison to other 8th Edition Army Books

[bad dice]

I would also like to not that ppl are not giving enoug respect to the new chariots
For the stats these things have they are already pretty good for the cost
The rest is just icing on the cake if you ask me
I mean these thing can pretty much run over most chaff unopposed.

[GodlessM]

I know I am going to get flamed for this, but....

A) I don't think Mournfang are undercosted. The unit is a glass cannon with **** leadership. Its awesome at killing T3 troops.... in an army that excells at exactly that. The lack of any static means one poorly timed buff/debuff, and they are basically gone, with virtually no chance of hanging in there with steadfast, like ogre block infantry would have. Great weapon troops and chaos warriors eat them alive. Demigryphs are basically a much weaker version of this unit, without the Dragonhide Banner to counter the whiffage and no impact hits to give it punch on the charge. Both are fun units with the potential to wreak less experienced opponents, but they are too specialized in areas where their parent armies already excell to be considered strong units.

B) Hellblaster with Engineer averages 18 shots a turn, that hit things at close range in the open on 3s, so 12 hits and 10 wounds on T3 guys in close. The same points of Hangunners nets you 7 wounds against T3 guys, but it is a core unit (maybe even detatchment), instead of a rare and hero and 20 wounds worth of guys. I guess if anyone is still bringing 5 man knight units they get to rape those if they are out in the open, but who seriously still takes those kinds of units, much less puts them anywhere in the same end of the table as a hellblaster without a screen? Also, if you put anything in front of this unit, hello hard cover penalty and forget about killing anything. Literally any other war machine is a better buy, unless you are using this thing as some sort of point defense turret for a castle up of war machines, which invites its own problems. This thing needed to be cheaper or slightly better in some way. I've faced this setup four times and thus far the best thing its accomplished is killing stray fanatics. Cannons will do more against a wider variety of opposition for much less. There is no reason to ever take this thing unless you already have three cannons an two steam tanks in your army and its still not enough full frontal male nudity gunline for you.....

Well I suppose every internet family has to have a black sheep. Just about every competitive Ogre player will disagree about the first point and every competitive Empire player about the second, on top of all the people that have to face these things as well. As for the specifics, T4 W3 and AS2+ is not even close to a glass cannon, and 7A each with stomps is going to be very hard to fluff. On another note, anything can get flattened by fluffing or spells, so a non-point really. They wreck infantry, plain and simple. As for the Helblaster, you are making a comparison (that still says Handgunners are worse BTW) based on being 12" away from the target, when is 2-3 turns in and with the enemy in charge range. If you are going to discount the early turns should I assume you don't believe in your own point enough to use the proper comparsion, or that in a game you would choose not to use shooting for a turn or two.

Honestly mate, it appears to me that you are still stuck in the early 8th edition mindset, where everything but infantry was useless; things have changed in the last two years.

[Wesser]

This is only true if you're going off spending a 40% of your points on characters, and another 25% on buffwagons to make State Troops amazing fighters instead of just having more units. I'm not denying that there are some wtf moments in the book, the main one being Handgunners. But from the responses on this forum you'd swear that Empire infantry are worse fighters than Zombies, even though somehow those exact same troops functioned fine in the last book and nothing changed. I remember seeing responses from people fearing the Halberdier horde led by Warrior Priest as no-one likes 30 S4 attacks with Hatred from a cheap Empire core choice... so what exactly has changed in the new book? Halberdiers cost more? Well the Priest costs less to compensate so I'm still not seeing it.

Simple. The priest was a crutch before. Now...now he's bloody mandatory thats whats different. Those 30 halberdiers assuming FC will set you back 210 assuming no detachments...and for the outlay they basically cannot fight. Thats what wrong.... why the hell isnt it the crutch thats expensive and inflexible rather than the unit? I get that the empire is combined arms army. A jack-of-all-trades. Except it isnt. Every part of the empire army has its crutch, its gimmick that it relies upon. It aint combined arms. It's reliance on the crutch... and death if the crutch gets removed

[The Low King]

Simple. The priest was a crutch before. Now...now he's bloody mandatory thats whats different. Those 30 halberdiers assuming FC will set you back 210 assuming no detachments...and for the outlay they basically cannot fight. Thats what wrong.... why the hell isnt it the crutch thats expensive and inflexible rather than the unit? I get that the empire is combined arms army. A jack-of-all-trades. Except it isnt. Every part of the empire army has its crutch, its gimmick that it relies upon. It aint combined arms. It's reliance on the crutch... and death if the crutch gets removed

Didnt empire core go up only by one point? so those 30 guys costs you 30 more points.....

how does that make them worse at fighting?

[Askari]

Didnt empire core go up only by one point? so those 30 guys costs you 30 more points.....

how does that make them worse at fighting?

The Warrior Priest went down 25pts too, so the entire unit went up... 5 points. 15 if you're taking 40 for some extra wounds before losing attacks. Shocking how crippling this new book is isn't it?

[Wesser]

The Warrior Priest went down 25pts too, so the entire unit went up... 5 points. 15 if you're taking 40 for some extra wounds before losing attacks. Shocking how crippling this new book is isn't it?

You don't have clue what I'm talking about do you?

Well I will explain it once more.

A halberdiers unit with WP cost about the same in both books and have the same fighting power. Th WP's have seen changes, but lets abandon that for a second.

What I want you to understand Askari is that I dont care a frag about what the unit and its crutch costs combined. What galls me is that the crutch is now MANDATORY rather than optional to make the unit balanced. Half the units in the book depend on crutches to do their job, to be viable, to be balanced. Basically only Steam Tanks, cannons and Outriders are free of this.

What I rebel against is that crutches became mandatory rather than option. The WP/halberdier example is great. It illustrates that the book is balanced compared to its old incarnation, but also that each unit needs a crutch to be balanced.

[yabbadabba]

This thread does need to come with a health warning. I don't agree with Wesser's "crutch" theory.

[Askari]

What galls me is that the crutch is now MANDATORY rather than optional to make the unit balanced. Half the units in the book depend on crutches to do their job, to be viable, to be balanced. Basically only Steam Tanks, cannons and Outriders are free of this.

What I rebel against is that crutches became mandatory rather than option. The WP/halberdier example is great. It illustrates that the book is balanced compared to its old incarnation, but also that each unit needs a crutch to be balanced.

When did they become 'mandatory' rather than optional? You're not making sense, the book doesn't force you to take these, neither did they in the last book. They just perform better if they do. This is absolutely no different from the last book. It not as if the unit doesn't do anything without this support either, it's still a block of average infantry which can put a dent in things. What's the big change that I'm clearly missing?

[Wesser]

This thread does need to come with a health warning. I don't agree with Wesser's "crutch" theory.

I made a point that people immeditaely tried to turn into something else. So I tried to clarify because I don't like being misquoted.

I dont mean to trample people with my opinion, but neither do I want to be dragged into a discussion about powerlevels.

When did they become 'mandatory' rather than optional? You're not making sense, the book doesn't force you to take these, neither did they in the last book. They just perform better if they do. This is absolutely no different from the last book. It not as if the unit doesn't do anything without this support either, it's still a block of average infantry which can put a dent in things. What's the big change that I'm clearly missing?

And to prove it yabba, I wont give a rebuttal here...

[yabbadabba]

I made a point that people immeditaely tried to turn into something else. So I tried to clarify because I don't like being misquoted.
I dont mean to trample people with my opinion, but neither do I want to be dragged into a discussion about powerlevels.

I don't agree with the crutch p.o.v. - that's all. I think in certain situation you will need that approach because of the nature of the playing environment, but its not true to all environments.

Also...nobody like snide comments

What snide comments?

[The bearded one]

I don't really understand how, taking the halbedier/WP example, the WP has become a mandatory crutch in this book, while it was an optional crutch in the previous one, when they are almost completely unchanged except for pointcosts and DD generation. What is different now to make the WP a mandatory crutch, but not in the previous one?

[bad dice]

In fact I would say that they wher god damm mandotry in the old book more then now.
For one now there are more ways to buff your troops and two that dispel dice was to good to pass up.

And For all those ppl weeping how bad empire troops are you should play as my goblin armie for once
Compared to those empire troops are godlike.

And don't go the they will win the fight in the long run discussion ok. My general is ld 8 EIGHT. They will flee in terror from empire troops in the long run.

[The bearded one]

Compared to those empire troops are godlike.

and expensive.

[bad dice]

and expensive.

They dam well should be.
But just lets not compare both to skaven units
(who ever wrote that should still be shot)

[Montegue]

It seems the definition of "glass cannon" has been expanded to include models that are so very dangerous that they must be immediately brought down with high strength artillery and great weapon hordes. Doesn't get much better than a 2+ armor save, lol.

[bad dice]

I don't know glass is a pretty tough substance when it is thick enough maybe that is what he is referring to. I mean as long is you don't try to bend it its pretty much indestructible if it is more than a few inches thick

[The bearded one]

It seems the definition of "glass cannon" has been expanded to include models that are so very dangerous that they must be immediately brought down with high strength artillery and great weapon hordes. Doesn't get much better than a 2+ armor save, lol.

How about a 1+ armoursave?

You had that one coming

[Petey]

In fact I would say that they wher god damm mandotry in the old book more then now.
For one now there are more ways to buff your troops and two that dispel dice was to good to pass up.

And For all those ppl weeping how bad empire troops are you should play as my goblin armie for once
Compared to those empire troops are godlike.

And don't go the they will win the fight in the long run discussion ok. My general is ld 8 EIGHT. They will flee in terror from empire troops in the long run.

I agree with this assessment. Although I play goblins also and don't mind that they suck, they're cheap as Hell.

[Confessor_Atol]

This discussion has gotten pretty hyperbolic.

[Montegue]

Like I said, TBO - not *much* better. :P

The book compares well to other 8th ed books. Certainly against Vamp Counts. It can tear apart Ogres, as well, with huge blocks of halberds that contain large halberd hordes as detachments. Oh, look, your Gutstar smashed into my 60 strong Halberd unit. It's stubborn because of the CoC, and even if you kill that guy it's probably going to be steadfast for the entire game. Oh, and here comes the 30 strong detachment into your flank. Did I mention that they are rerolling to wound? And that the unit in front has a 5+ ward save against all those great weapon swings? And that all 60+ attacks happen before your Ironguts swing? Yeah...