Empire 8th Army Book in Comparison to other 8th Edition Army Books

[The bearded one]

8th book - vampires...only a few units can operate effectively outside the march bubble, and even then you want to keep them close for the invoc and corpse cart buffs. Lots of synergy, lots of "really good" choices (vamp lord Asf blood fury). Very much like Empire! (6 bloodknights and a vamp hero into my 40 halberdiers plus WP plus mind razor...5 dead bloodknights.

I don't think empire necessarily synergises better with mind razor than other armies. if I mindrazor my saurus, those bloodknights are gonna be sickeningly dead as well

[Lord Inquisitor]

Empire does synergies well with mindrazor for the reason that they can hit very reliably and generate a lot of attacks with a poor strength. The other armies that can be reliant on mindrazor FTW are high and dark elves, both able to generate lots of high WS attacks with re-rolls to hit but need strength to back it up. Empire have hurricanums to boost the effective WS for hitting and priests for re-rolls. Free company or spearmen can generate plenty of attacks. All you need to do is get the spell off. While Empire don't have the ways that the elves do of pushing a spell through they can generate a good amount of dice and there are a few nice tricks to get the spell off.

[The bearded one]

Empire does synergies well with mindrazor for the reason that they can hit very reliably and generate a lot of attacks with a poor strength. The other armies that can be reliant on mindrazor FTW are high and dark elves, both able to generate lots of high WS attacks with re-rolls to hit but need strength to back it up. Empire have hurricanums to boost the effective WS for hitting and priests for re-rolls. Free company or spearmen can generate plenty of attacks. All you need to do is get the spell off. While Empire don't have the ways that the elves do of pushing a spell through they can generate a good amount of dice and there are a few nice tricks to get the spell off.

I think mindrazor synergises well with any unit that can generate a lot of attacks, or has rerolls to hit (or both of course, which is what the elves do with their spearunits). A horde of halbediers doesn't generate more attacks than another horde. If beastmen had acces to mindrazor, it could synergise very well with them too. A unit of beastmen gors with additional handweapons has more attacks, can have rerolls to hit by passing a ld test, and has an appreciable strength with mindrazor to rip stuff to shreds. Similarly if tomb kings had acces to it, they could plump down a horde of skeleton warriors with spears with tomb king, for 40 WS6 attacks at the tomb king's leadership. Add a necrotect to it for hatred, and watch stuff evaporate. Daemons can mindrazor daemonettes, who have multiple low strength attacks, with easy acces to rerolls. They even have armourpiercing so that the little bit of armour they don't negate with the ld8 from the herald (ld8 is str8, which is -5 on armour), is negated by armourpiercing.

[Texhnolyze]

*snip* ...If beastmen had acces to mindrazor, it could synergise very well with them too... *snip*

They do have access to Shadow and mind razor

[The bearded one]

They do have access to Shadow and mind razor

Durp, missed that part. Luckily it only reinforces the argument. Good to know though, now that I'm on the brink of starting beastmen

[Lord Inquisitor]

Who said halberdiers are the only unit taken by empire? I'm starting to see spearmen and free company replace halberdiers, backed with priest and hurricanum with the idea of getting mindrazor.

[The bearded one]

Who said halberdiers are the only unit taken by empire? I'm starting to see spearmen and free company replace halberdiers, backed with priest and hurricanum with the idea of getting mindrazor.

point is I don't find empire particularly more synergised for mindrazor when there are swathes of armies with units with multiple attacks from spears, frenzy, add.hw etc. and a source of rerolls to hit or other bonus. They're par with any of those others.

[Bigman]

point is I don't find empire particularly more synergised for mindrazor when there are swathes of armies with units with multiple attacks from spears, frenzy, add.hw etc. and a source of rerolls to hit or other bonus. They're par with any of those others.

It wasn't my intention to say that Empire synergised well with shadow. Just feel that if you do take mortars, taking shadow helps them be more effective.

As you say, mindrazor works for lots of armies.

[Lord Inquisitor]

No disagreement that empire aren't particularly better than the other mindrazor FTW armies - just that they have all the elements required to make the most out of mindrazor. Shadow is a very good lore for Empire - as it is for many armies but they can really use many aspects.

[Ebon]

I restrict my magic to Shadow, Death and Beasts for fluff reasons (I play a Sylvania themed Empire army) and Shadows is very nasty.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Actually I've been trying out a double-level-4 build and it works well. I think we'll see Life + Shadow or some other combination start to become popular. Not quite the cheese that is double Slaan but pretty cheap.

[Ebon]

Actually I've been trying out a double-level-4 build and it works well. I think we'll see Life + Shadow or some other combination start to become popular. Not quite the cheese that is double Slaan but pretty cheap.

Alas, doesn't fit with the theme for my Empire army. And I'm not sure if I'd call double Slann as "cheese". OK, they're godly in the magic phase but they die in a strong breeze if you get them alone.

[Wesser]

Okay one entire page dedicated to Mindrazor?

That spell is so broken it aint fun... in fact anyone who uses Shadow magic is getting zero points for army selection.

So lets keep that spell out of any serious tactics discussion. It's brokenly good on an non-VC unit you cast it upon and said unit will probably rip anything to pieces as long as they got either good WS or rerolls to hit.

[Bigman]

Okay one entire page dedicated to Mindrazor?

That spell is so broken it aint fun... in fact anyone who uses Shadow magic is getting zero points for army selection.

So lets keep that spell out of any serious tactics discussion. It's brokenly good on an non-VC unit you cast it upon and said unit will probably rip anything to pieces as long as they got either good WS or rerolls to hit.

Agreed on the point that it's not worth discussing, indeed it was a tiny part of my original reply to the thread on the last page.

Curious as to why you think shadow magic (having been told its not mandatory) scores zero points for army selection.

Does that follow for life taking Slaan's in your view as well? And shadow for elves--dark or high.

Just curious if it is shadow lore or just the regular combinations you dislike.

[Jezbot]

I think Wesser has a point. One argument is that "State Troops buffed to the brim will rock". That's like saying "If everything goes right" which pretty much goes for everything bar robohorses. Relying on a complex "infrastructure" to achieve things is often not such a good idea. Of course other core units in other armies need some support but certainly not on this level. Some of them are good enough with just General and BSB, which many don't even consider to be support anymore - they're just there. And a Warrior Priest is cool but he's so darned fragile that it's very questionable if you'll get to enjoy his benefits for long.

I think it's a crutch if the unit absolutely needs it to be worthwhile. ie chariots must get the charge to justify their cost. I don't think the situation is that extreme with Empire troops, instead without buffs they go from modest troops, point for point, and with buffs they go to strong performers. As such, the shift is far more modest than Wesser and yourself are making it out to be.

The Warrior Priest is no more fragile in this edition than he was previously. As before he delivers a lot of his value in the first combat, even if he doesn't live long enough to do anything himself, just by providing hatred. He was always a prime target before, because killing him denied the Empire player a dispel die every turn, and despite that I kept him alive pretty often. I mean, ultimately if the enemy really wants to kill an Empire character then the poor sod will die, but there's an issue of target saturation (target the warrior priest and the captain survives, and then is that costing him from targeting the BSB, and the wizard and so on).

With the last book I would have agreed with you on core, now I'm not so sure. Again, almost every army list I've seen since April had a single big block in it @2,500 points (+detachments, +20 GS or some such). And these armies win games. Perhaps it's new army syndrome, I don't know. I personally like several infantry combat elements and have been very sceptical of those lists as they seem lopsided but - and this is what those comparisons between old and new lists illustrate so well - it's so darn difficult to get enough of that and enough support from the other sections.

If we assume that a warrior priest and captain are needed for every decent block, then you've got a 100+ overhead for each unit. This strongly tips Empire towards one or two very big blocks. Detachments give the Empire player some security for the flanks of his big block, and extend the bonuses of those characters. It just seems to me to be the way the whole is pointing, at the competitive level.

I guess the alternative is drop the warrior priests altogether, and go with buff wagons. That opens the door for buffs on smaller units, and maybe opens the door to cavalry.

[Wesser]

Agreed on the point that it's not worth discussing, indeed it was a tiny part of my original reply to the thread on the last page.

Curious as to why you think shadow magic (having been told its not mandatory) scores zero points for army selection.

Does that follow for life taking Slaan's in your view as well? And shadow for elves--dark or high.

Just curious if it is shadow lore or just the regular combinations you dislike.

It scores zero points with me because everyone an dtheir grandmother takes it if they can. A "bravo" here if you play Dark Elves and actually uses Dark Magic btw

Mindrazor is on an overall basis the best spell in the game and the Withering, Enfeeble and Miasma are also some of the top spells. Incredibly useful in every army.

Granted that Pendulum and Pit of Shades are only as good as the army you play against, but Shadow is just overplayed and while it is a strong lore half the reason is Mindrazor alone.

I'm just tired of elven players throwing 6 dices at it I guess

[Bigman]

It scores zero points with me because everyone an dtheir grandmother takes it if they can. A "bravo" here if you play Dark Elves and actually uses Dark Magic btw

Mindrazor is on an overall basis the best spell in the game and the Withering, Enfeeble and Miasma are also some of the top spells. Incredibly useful in every army.

Granted that Pendulum and Pit of Shades are only as good as the army you play against, but Shadow is just overplayed and while it is a strong lore half the reason is Mindrazor alone.

I'm just tired of elven players throwing 6 dices at it I guess

100% agreed here. In my case if I take shadow it's usually because I am taking the mortar. In that respect I'm looking for withering to help make it effective again! But in the games I have played with the new book I have missed a magic missile quite a bit, plus hitting first seems to work better with my army, so I'm trying light alot now. Works even better if I take a WA ;-).

I guess everyone feels differently. I'm fairly happy with the new book. 2 cents done :-)

[GodlessM]

It scores zero points with me because everyone an dtheir grandmother takes it if they can. A "bravo" here if you play Dark Elves and actually uses Dark Magic btw

Mindrazor is on an overall basis the best spell in the game and the Withering, Enfeeble and Miasma are also some of the top spells. Incredibly useful in every army.

Granted that Pendulum and Pit of Shades are only as good as the army you play against, but Shadow is just overplayed and while it is a strong lore half the reason is Mindrazor alone.

I'm just tired of elven players throwing 6 dices at it I guess

I use Shadow a lot but have never taken it for Mindrazor and in fact I usually don't take Mindrazor. A combination of buffs is on the whole usually more effective (or at least for Chaos it is).

[Bigman]

I use Shadow a lot but have never taken it for Mindrazor and in fact I usually don't take Mindrazor. A combination of buffs is on the whole usually more effective (or at least for Chaos it is).

Same here.

Back on subject, we should encourage more commentary on 8th empire vs other 8th books. Anyone played O&G's with them yet?

[yabbadabba]

Same here.

Back on subject, we should encourage more commentary on 8th empire vs other 8th books. Anyone played O&G's with them yet?

Loads. That choppa rule hurts.