Empire 8th Army Book in Comparison to other 8th Edition Army Books

[The bearded one]

In 8th edition they were. In 7th edition not so much.

I think a comparison of how a 7th edition book in 7th edition performed, compared to an 8th edition book in 8th edition, is fairly moot and has little value because they work completely different. It would also mean we should mostly be complaining about how knights suck now compared to how well knights from the 7th edition book worked in 7th edition.

When speaking of 8th edition, the 7th edition halbediers were a fine choice amongst the statetroops and not noticably worse than any other particular core infantry choice. By comparison in the 8th edition book they are notably better than almost all others.

[Montegue]

The halbredier is one of the most cost efficient models in the game. If it wasn't for the severely undercosted Chaos Marauder, the Halbredier would be the most cost efficient model in the game.

At six points, you get a S4 basic infantry troop. This sounds underwhelming. However, when you consider the overall focus that the Empire has on synergy, the strength of this cheap troop becomes readily apparent. Fielded in a group of 60, it costs under 400 points. That means it can take 20 wounds before it's at a standard horde size.

Fielded with a Warrior Priest, the unit gains hatred, and access to several game-changing buffs. Fielded with a Captain of the Empire the unit essentially becomes Cold-blooded. It will remain steadfast basically forever if fielded 5-wide, and will remain steadfast for the majority of a conflict if fielded in horde formation while dishing out 30 or more S4 attacks. That assumes not one single buff ever gets cast successfully on the unit.

If the hurricanum is up and active, the unit hits on threes.

The Empire can also field stubborn, heavily armored Cavalry. These units can work as both hammer and anvil, especially when coupled with a hard hitting character.

The Empire can field a 10-wound mobile Cannon that has an amazing amount of impact hits and can grind units to dust. It has an excellent armor save, and only the very strongest units really present a threat to it's T6 in combat.

The Empire has access to all magical lores.

The Empire has access to monstrous cavalry with an excellent armor save and hard hitting attacks.

The Empire has access to 11 point 4+ armor save great weapon units.

The Mortar may have been nerfed, but it's about as effective as a regular stone thrower against most enemy troops. The Rocket battery can be devastating. Master Engineers can blow you up with frickin' pigeons. Witch Hunters have Sniper and killing blow.

The Empire changed, no doubt. I do not think it changed to be useless, or even changed much for the worse.

[bad dice]

I guess no one gets the its impossible to have only valid choices argument.

Also I think ppl are just bitching about the points increase.

I mean what you guys are saying is that for 1 point more sword masters are now a invalid choice cause halberds are clearly better.
I mean sword masters are still the best choice for tar-pits even whit the points increase. The ws4 and better save make up the difference for me

[The bearded one]

I guess no one gets the its impossible to have only valid choices argument.

Also I think ppl are just bitching about the points increase.

I mean what you guys are saying is that for 1 point more sword masters are now a invalid choice cause halberds are clearly better.
I mean sword masters are still the best choice for tar-pits even whit the points increase. The ws4 and better save make up the difference for me

No, swordsmen are not particularly great for 8th edition anyway. Single str3 attacks, even at ws4, without at least having a lot of them (like through frenzy, additional handweapons or spears), don't accomplish much, and they are too expensive to be a tarpit. 7 points is simply the killing blow and unnecessarily expensive.

[Phazael]

I like the new book, but I think a couple things might have been done better.

Demigryphs-
Too weak for their cost, especially without the ability to bunker a character in them. I honestly think they should have one more attack on the mount or cost about 9 points less. If you could put a Grand Master on a Demi mount, it might justify them at their present cost, I guess. Having played against them several times, with armies ranging from DoC to Night Gobs, I have just not been impressed with them at all.

Hellblaster and Engineers-
People are going gaga over this right now, but seriously 200 points for something that maybe kills 5-8 T3 derps a turn. A ten pack of handgunners could do the same for less, and they are core. The Engineers getting gear is a good start, but they needed a little more help to be worthwhile.

Oversaturation of Special Choices-
The halmark of a Robin Cruddice book is one section overloaded with good things while others languish. The Empire, with its logjam of really good Special options, is no exception. People bitch about the Flaggelents (who are now appropriately priced), but the real issue is that Greatswords are sitting in the same slot for similar cost and abilities. Along with the better knights and all the key war machines. Leaving Flaggelents at rare would have alleviated some of this, but pushing pistoleers into core or some other similar shifts would have helped spread the wealth around too.

Outside of that and the usual point costing gaffes, I think the book is solid for an 8th book. When making a balanced list it is on par with the Ogre and VC books, which is about where I would like to see all future books balanced around.

[GodlessM]

Demigryphs-
Too weak for their cost, especially without the ability to bunker a character in them. I honestly think they should have one more attack on the mount or cost about 9 points less. If you could put a Grand Master on a Demi mount, it might justify them at their present cost, I guess. Having played against them several times, with armies ranging from DoC to Night Gobs, I have just not been impressed with them at all.

How are they two weak for their cost? They are 7pts then the widely considered undercosted and powerful Mournfangs, with a greater save and greater strength on the charge. They lose two attacks and a toughness for those 7pts. Considering what Mournfangs are considered to be, and comparing Demi-gryphs to them, I'm not seeing how the Gryphs are weak.

Hellblaster and Engineers-
People are going gaga over this right now, but seriously 200 points for something that maybe kills 5-8 T3 derps a turn. A ten pack of handgunners could do the same for less, and they are core. The Engineers getting gear is a good start, but they needed a little more help to be worthwhile.

Now there's a blanket statement I can truely laugh at. Have you done any math on the subject; I'm guessing not if you think 10 Handgunners can match a Helblaster for damage potential? Let's even the odds for you sure; for the cost of the Blaster and Engineer you get 20 Handgunners. With your average 18 shots for the Blaster, at long range it hits on 4's, Handgunners 20 shots hit on 5's at long range. Let's present some targets, the type you really need to whittle down. White Lions vs Blaster; 9 hits, 6.25 unsaved wounds. White Lions vs Gunners; 6.7 hits, 2.9 unsaved wounds. Marauders vs Blaster; 9 hits, 7.5 unsaved wounds. Marauders vs Gunners; 6.7 hits, 4.5 unsaved wounds. Tzeentch Chaos Warriors vs Blaster; 9 hits, 4.2 unsaved wounds. Tzeentch Chaos Warriors vs Gunners; 6.7 hits, 1.9 unsaved wounds. Look at that over the three rounds; that's 18-19 dead Lions, 22-23 dead Marauders, and 12-13 dead Chaos Warriors for the Blaster, crippling any of those units. Conversely, the Gunners only get ~9 dead Lions, ~14 dead Marauders, and ~6 dead Chaos Warriors, leaving all three units still a threat you can't deal with. Handgunners also don't strike the same fear in monsters and cavalry that the Helblaster does, giving it multiple roles.

[Jericho]

...

Empire have always been horribly log-jammed in Special (since at least 6th edition). This is nothing new! And in 8th you can take multiples of each and 50% overall in Special so it's less of an issue than in 7th.

WRT Demigryphs, it's the 1A on the rider that really limits their offense. Monstrous Supporting Attacks means you can get 3 supporting attacks from the riders (but in this case they only have 1) while the mounts in the second rank don't get to attack at all. Mournfangs are nasty because the rider has 3A, making bigger units extremely hard hitting (and horribly expensive). I think they remain a good unit and have certain advantages over 'fangs, but they aren't as universally smashy.

Oh, and the Helblaster really isn't for shooting "T3 derps" ... that's what the Helstorm is for!

[yabbadabba]

All Empire troops are 1A. Its something we have to live with.

[DaemonReign]

The Empire changed, no doubt. I do not think it changed to be useless, or even changed much for the worse.

I think you wrote a good summary just now Montegue.
The new book obviously represents a 'recalibration' and some changes are difficult to understand fully - like the increased cost of shooting and the harshness of the nerf to the Mortar, although the sum is probably greater than the the 'individual details' in these matter and who knows maybe Cruddace had good reason for doing what he did there (remains to be seen). As I said on the first page already I think it's incorrect to look at the Statetroops individually and try to understand why they got more expensive - that's all about the new Detachment Rules(!) which I suspect/think that a lot of you guys are still overlooking by some degree.. They are good, much better than before, and the current Detachment-rules with the previous costs might just have been OTT (not certain about this last bit, of course - but it may well have been the case).

So recalibrated for sure, but certainly not worse. At least against my Daemons the Empire has never felt this strong - and we haven't even started using the wiz-mobiles, witchhunters, or demigryphs (as they are not painted just yet).

If I was an Empire player I'd have gripes about the following:
- The Detachment Steadfast Mess.
- No Character mounted in DemiGryph-units (probably the implicit fault of parasite vendors)
- Why (on earth) no Hot-Pot? *haha*
- Too few Army Specific Magic Items (well, it's an 8th Ed malaise really so perhaps moot).

Other than that I really think people (for their own sake) should try to pull themselves away from their negative positions. It's a perfectly fine book for 8th Edition, just as the previous ones have been perfectly fine, and the rest of us still stuck with the same dusty old 7th Ed books (or older) can only cross our fingers to get the same kind of treatment when it's our turn.

As always, in my humble opinion of course..

[GodlessM]

The point of Monstrous Cavalry is never to make ranks of them as with the exception of Mournfangs I don't think any others have more than 1 rider attack each anyway. The riders are there or saves, it is the mount that does the killing.

[Commodus Leitdorf]

Hellblaster and Engineers-
People are going gaga over this right now, but seriously 200 points for something that maybe kills 5-8 T3 derps a turn. A ten pack of handgunners could do the same for less, and they are core. The Engineers getting gear is a good start, but they needed a little more help to be worthwhile.

I can honestly say that if you're shooting your Helblaster at a block of troops your doing it wrong. Its job is to kill heavily armoured Knights, put it on a flank and watch your opponent not deploy his troops across from you. A potential 30 str5 Armour Piercing shots (fired at BS4) will do that.

[yabbadabba]

- The Detachment Steadfast Mess.

I know we have had this discussion but I don't think its a mess, its not even vaguely untidy for me.

- No Character mounted in DemiGryph-units (probably the implicit fault of parasite vendors)

I think its because it would become too much of a no brainer.

- Too few Army Specific Magic Items (well, it's an 8th Ed malaise really so perhaps moot).

Its retro, not a malaise ;-)

Real issues - pistoilliers, mortar and handgunners/crossbows. The first two are very game specific and the latter are only real;ly useful in the current game as defensive detachments.

[bad dice]

No, swordsmen are not particularly great for 8th edition anyway. Single str3 attacks, even at ws4, without at least having a lot of them (like through frenzy, additional handweapons or spears), don't accomplish much, and they are too expensive to be a tarpit. 7 points is simply the killing blow and unnecessarily expensive.

I wasn't talking in a offensive sense I was talking defensive. Being ws 4 saves about 25% casualties against units that are also ws4 (like orc big ones marauders basic dwarfs and elves ect) Having a 6+ ward saves a other 17 % so they are about 17-50% better as a tarpit then halberds or spear men and 17% more expensive so I would consider them for that role.

Also taking less causalities helps if you want to use your block to take away steadfast on those units that are in combat whit the demi-griphs. (easier to win easier to keep your ranks)

[The Low King]

I wasn't talking in a offensive sense I was talking defensive. Being ws 4 saves about 17% casualties against units that are also ws4 (like orc big ones marauders basic dwarfs and elves ect) Having a 6+ ward saves a other 9 % so they are about 10-25% better as a tarpit then halberds or spear men and 17% more expensive so I would consider them for that role.

You sure about that maths?

If you are being hit on 3s then roughly 4/6 of attacks hit
Being hit on 4s then roughtly 3/6 of attacks hit.
That means 25% less hits (25% less damage)

Parry save means a 1/6 chance of saving any wounds
That means 16.66666% less damage

[bad dice]

You sure about that maths?



Parry save means a 1/6 chance of saving any wounds
That means 16.66666% less damage

You are right I messed up a bit
In fact against ws 4 st 5+ you would suffer 37.5% less wounds whit swordsmen than helbard
50% less against st 4 (you still get a 6+ save)
Worth it against those orcs.

Ill edit my first post to make it easier to read the thread.

[Phazael]

I know I am going to get flamed for this, but....

A) I don't think Mournfang are undercosted. The unit is a glass cannon with **** leadership. Its awesome at killing T3 troops.... in an army that excells at exactly that. The lack of any static means one poorly timed buff/debuff, and they are basically gone, with virtually no chance of hanging in there with steadfast, like ogre block infantry would have. Great weapon troops and chaos warriors eat them alive. Demigryphs are basically a much weaker version of this unit, without the Dragonhide Banner to counter the whiffage and no impact hits to give it punch on the charge. Both are fun units with the potential to wreak less experienced opponents, but they are too specialized in areas where their parent armies already excell to be considered strong units.

B) Hellblaster with Engineer averages 18 shots a turn, that hit things at close range in the open on 3s, so 12 hits and 10 wounds on T3 guys in close. The same points of Hangunners nets you 7 wounds against T3 guys, but it is a core unit (maybe even detatchment), instead of a rare and hero and 20 wounds worth of guys. I guess if anyone is still bringing 5 man knight units they get to rape those if they are out in the open, but who seriously still takes those kinds of units, much less puts them anywhere in the same end of the table as a hellblaster without a screen? Also, if you put anything in front of this unit, hello hard cover penalty and forget about killing anything. Literally any other war machine is a better buy, unless you are using this thing as some sort of point defense turret for a castle up of war machines, which invites its own problems. This thing needed to be cheaper or slightly better in some way. I've faced this setup four times and thus far the best thing its accomplished is killing stray fanatics. Cannons will do more against a wider variety of opposition for much less. There is no reason to ever take this thing unless you already have three cannons an two steam tanks in your army and its still not enough full frontal male nudity gunline for you.....

[Wesser]

Other than that I really think people (for their own sake) should try to pull themselves away from their negative positions. It's a perfectly fine book for 8th Edition, just as the previous ones have been perfectly fine, and the rest of us still stuck with the same dusty old 7th Ed books (or older) can only cross our fingers to get the same kind of treatment when it's our turn.

Well thats the root of the problem. It aint a terrible book by itself, but as a whole I think its a step back from what was a BETTER book. Yep, I said it. 7th edition is better book. Not that it was more powerful, but it was a better book with better internal balance.

It's not just about powerlevel, but about an army book thats overdesigned.

- Engineers are shoehorned into being either pidgeoneers or hellblaster crewmembers

- Hurricanums(and for that matter WAltars) not affecting shooting defining it into a narrow support role.

- State troops cannot function as tarpits or support troops. They are too expensive. They are forced to buy characters, detachments and other gimmicky stuff to be fighting worthy and for all of that they are limited in what the can effectively fight

- Because of the supporting attacks rule demigryphs cannot be anything but support troops (not that a real combat monster unit would be appropriate for empire anyway).




Everything has its exactly defined role. Every unit is designed to do one job and one job only...except pistoliers which cant do anything apart from cluttering the table.

But thats true with most units in most books. What irks me...what makes me believe that our new book is a step back (apart from the fact that we have 4 useless units ofc) is that most of our unist can only do its specified job if some other unit/gimmick/character is helping it!

Our whole army is walking on crutches is whats wrong. It's so gallingly inflexible and predictable. The Empire has such easily exploitable weaknesses that even VC player's shouldnt be jammering about dying generals.

Empire has a good trackrecord only because people havent yet learned to knock away the crippled man's crutches. He can't move if he dont have crutches people!



Daemonreign.... Really just wait for the new Dsemon book. The new one where:

- Daemons only get their ward save if within 6' of a daemon prince or greater daemon.

- Where a Herald can join flamers increasing their range to 36'

- Where Daemons Engines will run around the board and every enemy unit with 6' gets -1 to hit

Daemons with their heralds/flamers are in the same position now as empire was with WP/mortar before. Daemons are already a pretty inflexible lot, but as Empire have proved...it can be made worse

[Gradek]

I know I am going to get flamed for this, but....

A) I don't think Mournfang are undercosted. The unit is a glass cannon with **** leadership. Its awesome at killing T3 troops.... in an army that excells at exactly that. The lack of any static means one poorly timed buff/debuff, and they are basically gone, with virtually no chance of hanging in there with steadfast, like ogre block infantry would have. Great weapon troops and chaos warriors eat them alive. Demigryphs are basically a much weaker version of this unit, without the Dragonhide Banner to counter the whiffage and no impact hits to give it punch on the charge. Both are fun units with the potential to wreak less experienced opponents, but they are too specialized in areas where their parent armies already excell to be considered strong units.

You have to be kidding. So the 2+ save, T4 mournfangs are a glass cannon? And if they are so weak, why does every tourney list take 2 units? Mournfangs are an absurdly good unit for Ogres. It gives the Ogre army an extremely hard hitting flanker unit that is virtually immune to normal missile fire coming in and that on the charge is absolutely devastating (even to T4 troops).

[Boreas_NL]

Well thats the root of the problem. It aint a terrible book by itself, but as a whole I think its a step back from what was a BETTER book. Yep, I said it. 7th edition is better book. Not that it was more powerful, but it was a better book with better internal balance.

It's not just about powerlevel, but about an army book thats overdesigned.

- Engineers are shoehorned into being either pidgeoneers or hellblaster crewmembers

- Hurricanums(and for that matter WAltars) not affecting shooting defining it into a narrow support role.

- State troops cannot function as tarpits or support troops. They are too expensive. They are forced to buy characters, detachments and other gimmicky stuff to be fighting worthy and for all of that they are limited in what the can effectively fight

- Because of the supporting attacks rule demigryphs cannot be anything but support troops (not that a real combat monster unit would be appropriate for empire anyway).

Everything has its exactly defined role. Every unit is designed to do one job and one job only...except pistoliers which cant do anything apart from cluttering the table.

But thats true with most units in most books. What irks me...what makes me believe that our new book is a step back (apart from the fact that we have 4 useless units ofc) is that most of our unist can only do its specified job if some other unit/gimmick/character is helping it!

Our whole army is walking on crutches is whats wrong. It's so gallingly inflexible and predictable. The Empire has such easily exploitable weaknesses that even VC player's shouldnt be jammering about dying generals.

Empire has a good trackrecord only because people havent yet learned to knock away the crippled man's crutches. He can't move if he dont have crutches people!

Do we have a mind link? This is exactly my vision of the new Empire book. Thank you! It all feels like a big step backwards, even though there are improvements...

[Askari]

Everything has its exactly defined role. Every unit is designed to do one job and one job only...except pistoliers which cant do anything apart from cluttering the table.

But thats true with most units in most books. What irks me...what makes me believe that our new book is a step back (apart from the fact that we have 4 useless units ofc) is that most of our unist can only do its specified job if some other unit/gimmick/character is helping it!

Our whole army is walking on crutches is whats wrong. It's so gallingly inflexible and predictable. The Empire has such easily exploitable weaknesses that even VC player's shouldnt be jammering about dying generals.

Empire has a good trackrecord only because people havent yet learned to knock away the crippled man's crutches. He can't move if he dont have crutches people!

This is only true if you're going off spending a 40% of your points on characters, and another 25% on buffwagons to make State Troops amazing fighters instead of just having more units. I'm not denying that there are some wtf moments in the book, the main one being Handgunners. But from the responses on this forum you'd swear that Empire infantry are worse fighters than Zombies, even though somehow those exact same troops functioned fine in the last book and nothing changed. I remember seeing responses from people fearing the Halberdier horde led by Warrior Priest as no-one likes 30 S4 attacks with Hatred from a cheap Empire core choice... so what exactly has changed in the new book? Halberdiers cost more? Well the Priest costs less to compensate so I'm still not seeing it.