Felix Jaeger met Mannfred von Carstein?

[woodster17]

Haven't just recently picked up the VC army book I was kind of annoyed to see that Phil Kelly has written in to the timeline that Felix met Mannfred at Drakenhof Castle. I may however have overlooked a meeting elsewhere. I make a point of collecting most of the fluff available in WFB but certainly haven't really seen that referenced before. William King's Vampireslayer has Gotrek and Felix destroying Adolphus Krieger in Drakenhof. If they had 'met' Mannfred I'm pretty sure someone would have died. Gotrek and Felix definitely didn't return to Drakenhof after they disappeared in to the Paths of the Old Ones in Sylvania (to subsequently end up on Albion) so did Kelly alter the Gotrek and Felix fluff or have I missed something here?

[Sheena Easton]

There is a story somewhere* in which Gotrek and Felix inadvertently raised Mannfred by killing the Necromancer mid ritual, and therefore supplying the required blood - and Felix meeting the reborn Mannfred at Drakenhof (and noone believing him) has been part of the fluff since 4th Ed.

*Hopefully someone will be able to supply the name / location of said story

[Scalebug]

It's an old short story, from the 4th ed Undead Army book. Might have been in one of the old antologies as well. Gotrek and Felx are accidentially responsible for resurrecting Mannfred, after killing a Necromancer who had exhumed his bones from the swamp where he was killed at the end of the Vampire wars 400 years earlier. The Necromancer was going to sacrifice a girl, but ended up powering the spell himself as the blood sacrifice as Gotrek kills him.

Mannfred is weak on his return and retreats from the pair, going into hiding for a while rebuilding his armies and personal strenght until he is as he is presented in the game now currently.

[iamjack42]

There is a story somewhere* in which Gotrek and Felix inadvertently raised Mannfred by killing the Necromancer mid ritual, and therefore supplying the required blood - and Felix meeting the reborn Mannfred at Drakenhof (and noone believing him) has been part of the fluff since 4th Ed.

*Hopefully someone will be able to supply the name / location of said story

It's in the 4th edition undead army book, I believe. Sheena Easton is correct, there's a story of how a necromancer is trying to revive Mannfred by sacrificing a peasant girl - the girl is saved, but the necromancer blood completes the ritual. Mannfred disappears, leaving Felix and Gotrek somewhat unnerved.

Edit: Ninjas!

[roirin]

I think there's two explanations, 1- he changed the vampire s name because no one knows who krieger is or 2- He was talking about the short story written long ago where Gotrek and Felix met Manfred in a haunted castle and manfred eventually teleported/turned into a bat to escape. This story was later retconned in Giantslayer to be in a parallel universe that never actually happened.

[woodster17]

There is a story somewhere* in which Gotrek and Felix inadvertently raised Mannfred by killing the Necromancer mid ritual, and therefore supplying the required blood - and Felix meeting the reborn Mannfred at Drakenhof (and noone believing him) has been part of the fluff since 4th Ed.

*Hopefully someone will be able to supply the name / location of said story

Ok but that doesn't really tie in at all with the novels or dates of the novels particularly (date is given as 2305 in the AB). Considering that immediately following Giantslayer G + F leave the Old World for 20 years and return in Orcslayer in the current time (ie. Storm of Chaos which is referenced in Orcslayer/Manslayer) 2505 would correspond with the meeting with Adolphus Krieger.

I think there's two explanations, 1- he changed the vampire s name because no one knows who krieger is or 2- He was talking about the short story written long ago where Gotrek and Felix met Manfred in a haunted castle and manfred eventually teleported/turned into a bat to escape. This story was later retconned in Giantslayer to be in a parallel universe that never actually happened.

That's what I was thinking with the latter. The first explanation wouldn't make sense because Krieger definitely died in Vampireslayer. True death.

[roirin]

The same thing happened with the massive empire/orc battle where snorri died and Felix fought a wyvern. King couldn t fit into his timeline either so that story is effectively gone too.

[Arnizipal]

It's in the 4th edition undead army book, I believe. Sheena Easton is correct, there's a story of how a necromancer is trying to revive Mannfred by sacrificing a peasant girl - the girl is saved, but the necromancer blood completes the ritual. Mannfred disappears, leaving Felix and Gotrek somewhat unnerved.

Edit: Ninjas!

And the peasant girl later becomes Mannfred's first thrall by tricking him into thinking she's nobility

Ok but that doesn't really tie in at all with the novels or dates of the novels particularly (date is given as 2305 in the AB). Considering that immediately following Giantslayer G + F leave the Old World for 20 years and return in Orcslayer in the current time (ie. Storm of Chaos which is referenced in Orcslayer/Manslayer) 2505 would correspond with the meeting with Adolphus Krieger.

Correct me if I'm weong but I seem to remember that there are never any real dates given in the G&F novels, except the printing dates of Felix' work, which logically happens much later.

[woodster17]

Correct me if I'm weong but I seem to remember that there are never any real dates given in the G&F novels, except the printing dates of Felix' work, which logically happens much later.

There are some dates actually. Firstly, Felix sent his work to his brother Otto who publishes it in his absence (so the date discrepancy isn't too much between and adventure and publishing). In terms of dates, Trollslayer is put at 2502, the invasion of Nuln at 2504, Praag 2505 and then subsequently Vampireslayer and Krieger 2505/06. This corresponds with Kelly's supposed 'meeting' with Mannfred. That is simply an estimate given on information supplied throughout the novel (Felix suggestions about years after his 20 year hiatus from the Old World ending just prior to Storm of Chaos). White Dwarf originally (in on edition) had the events of Trollslayer about 2499 and Praag 2501 but it seems that was revised. Also, in Shamanslayer Felix mentions a mistake in the publishing of the first edition of his books (it had been erroneously dated at 2505 which was a year late according to his reckoning).

Couple of other facts- Karl Franz was crowned in 2502 (I know some fluff retcons this) so the Window Tax Riots had to have happened after this date. Countess Emmanuelle of Nuln assumed power in 2503 (invasion of Nuln the year after in 2504). All of this information suggest that Felix was indeed in Drakenhof Castle in the winter of 2505 and helped in killing Adolphus Krieger. Past editions of VC army books mention a meeting with Mannfred possibly around 2503. Of course that's possible but Kelly has it in 2505 but simply can't be right given the circumstances. Also, in Vampireslayer Felix never once mentions that he had been to Drakenhof Castle before (which clearly would have come up). Sorry for the amount of info but it annoyed me somewhat that the dates/fluff don't really add up.

[Athelassan]

As mentioned, the original story is in the 4th ed army book. It's not in any of the novels.

In Giantslayer, Felix catches a glimpse of alternate realities in the Paths of the Old Ones which includes the meeting with Mannfred. It also includes the death of Snorri Nosebiter in a battle with orcs (featured in one of the other 4th ed army books - possibly the Empire one?) - Felix notes that these haven't happened.

The G&F novels and stories are persistent offenders for messing with the chronology. The old Warhammer novels had the coronation of Karl Franz in 2492 for some reason (this was the only source in which that was ever the date) and placed the invasion of Nuln (ie the events of Skavenslayer) in 2499. This was changed to 2514 in Children of the Horned Rat but has been moved back to 2499 in more recent sources. No attempt has been made to explain the discrepancy, and the dates haven't, for the most part, been updated to the correct chronology.

Night's Dark Masters treated the meeting with Mannfred as canonical; as Arzinipal notes above, the girl they "rescue" later becomes a thrall of Mannfred's and a NPC.

There's an additional bit of weirdness, too. Secondary sources reporting Mannfred's return talk about its being preposterous that a vampire like Mannfred could be defeated by a dwarf wielding a pair of silver candlesticks "as Felix claims". In the story in which they meet Mannfred, iirc, nothing of the sort happens. So either Felix made that part up or there's an additional level of obfuscation.

Magic/the Warp/Chaos did it. It's the only explanation that allows every situation to coexist. It's helpful in that respect that G&F went through the reality-distorting Paths in Giantslayer. Perhaps it didn't happen in their personal timelines but there was a mix-up and that event got "imported" from an alternate reality?

[woodster17]

Good stuff Athelassan as usual, cheers for the notes. In your 4th para if you're referring to the G+F novel where they 'meet' Krieger, not Mannfred in Castle Drakenhor, Snorri Nosebiter ends up killing him by crushing him with a giant chandelier (presumably piercing his heart).

Given the wide variation in opinion then, it probably would have been wise to leave that out of the VC timeline in the book (not that the fluff in the 8th ed hardcover books is particularly exhilarating- they've been dumbed down as a whole). It just doesn't look right to me. Given the timeframe in G+F Felix would have been either in Albion/killing Krieger or abroad in the Far East at that point in time (2505). Perhaps there could have been more collusion between King and GW about dates but never mind.

[snottlebocket]

As mentioned, the original story is in the 4th ed army book. It's not in any of the novels.

In Giantslayer, Felix catches a glimpse of alternate realities in the Paths of the Old Ones which includes the meeting with Mannfred. It also includes the death of Snorri Nosebiter in a battle with orcs (featured in one of the other 4th ed army books - possibly the Empire one?) - Felix notes that these haven't happened.

The G&F novels and stories are persistent offenders for messing with the chronology. The old Warhammer novels had the coronation of Karl Franz in 2492 for some reason (this was the only source in which that was ever the date) and placed the invasion of Nuln (ie the events of Skavenslayer) in 2499. This was changed to 2514 in Children of the Horned Rat but has been moved back to 2499 in more recent sources. No attempt has been made to explain the discrepancy, and the dates haven't, for the most part, been updated to the correct chronology.

Night's Dark Masters treated the meeting with Mannfred as canonical; as Arzinipal notes above, the girl they "rescue" later becomes a thrall of Mannfred's and a NPC.

There's an additional bit of weirdness, too. Secondary sources reporting Mannfred's return talk about its being preposterous that a vampire like Mannfred could be defeated by a dwarf wielding a pair of silver candlesticks "as Felix claims". In the story in which they meet Mannfred, iirc, nothing of the sort happens. So either Felix made that part up or there's an additional level of obfuscation.

Magic/the Warp/Chaos did it. It's the only explanation that allows every situation to coexist. It's helpful in that respect that G&F went through the reality-distorting Paths in Giantslayer. Perhaps it didn't happen in their personal timelines but there was a mix-up and that event got "imported" from an alternate reality?

Snorri's death is in the empire one. The 4th edition Empire book ends with a really great fluff story several pages long where an unwilling Felix is dragged into a full scale battle by Gotrek because Gotrek spotted some fellow slayers and a whole load of trolls. Even today it's probably one of the best fluff descriptions of an actual warhammer battle GW ever published.

Felix hangs back near the artillery while Gotrek and his fellow slayers leg it towards the trolls. Bad choice as it turns out when the Orc warlord goes warmachine hunting on his wyvern. Felix is saved by Karl Franz at the last moment when he dives down on his griffon to behead the orc lord. After the battle Felix finds a surly Gotrek who tells him Snorri killed four trolls... the last one fell on him.

The interesting thing about those old stories was that Felix wasn't much of a warrior at all. He was a cowardly drunken poet who swore an oath to Gotrek to chronicle his doom, not realizing that this meant travelling with Gotrek to see his doom. He was pretty much the bumbling, stumbling sidekick. He spend most of his time fantasizing about forgetting his oath and running of or just trying to persuade Gotrek that the creepy old Sylvanian castle really isn't the nicest place to visit at night. Even the special character at the time wasn't much. He had a blade of leaping copper (2 extra attacks) and that was about it.

Felix was the comedic relieve of warhammer at the time. Their encounter with the Carstein was pretty funny too. The big joke of the story was that the rather nerdy seeming necromancer needed a virgin sacrifice to return the dead Carstein to his corporeal form. The duo freed the captive virgin but apparently the necromancer didn't have much of a social life as his blood worked just fine.

[TheDungen]

You are assuming everyone remembers everything correct and no one is lying. If Felix had a part in resurrecting Mannfred i can understand why he would leave that out if his works.

[snottlebocket]

You are assuming everyone remembers everything correct and no one is lying. If Felix had a part in resurrecting Mannfred i can understand why he would leave that out if his works.

From what I remember they didn't even know it was a Carstein. Gotrek was just dragging Felix along to the dark evil castle in hopes of getting a nice, fancy death. Once there they killed the necro geek, rescued the girl and as the blood of the necromancer spills into his incantation circle this ghostly vampire pops up, issues some empty threats and mockery and immediately flies away.

[Athelassan]

You are assuming everyone remembers everything correct and no one is lying. If Felix had a part in resurrecting Mannfred i can understand why he would leave that out if his works.

The background suggests, though, that Felix did mention it in his works, but doesn't remember its happening. Which is the wrong way round, surely...

[Iron_Lord]

The G&F novels and stories are persistent offenders for messing with the chronology. The old Warhammer novels had the coronation of Karl Franz in 2492 for some reason (this was the only source in which that was ever the date) and placed the invasion of Nuln (ie the events of Skavenslayer) in 2499. This was changed to 2514 in Children of the Horned Rat but has been moved back to 2499 in more recent sources. No attempt has been made to explain the discrepancy, and the dates haven't, for the most part, been updated to the correct chronology.

I wondered if the reason for the date of Felix's encounter with Mannfred being listed as quite so late (2505) was so that it could take place after Giantslayer- so it wasn't a parallel universe, it was the future.

It would involve a one-shot visit to the Old World after Giantslayer (maybe he was just passing through)- but it does work with a chronology that puts Skavenslayer in 2499, Daemonslayer, Giantslayer and Beastslayer in 2500, Vampireslayer in early 2501, and Giantslayer in later 2501.

In the Ignorant Armies anthology- some time before Beastslayer was written- it mentions a major event- the Siege of Praag, in 2500.

[snottlebocket]

I wondered if the reason for the date of Felix's encounter with Mannfred being listed as quite so late (2505) was so that it could take place after Giantslayer- so it wasn't a parallel universe, it was the future.

It would involve a one-shot visit to the Old World after Giantslayer (maybe he was just passing through)- but it does work with a chronology that puts Skavenslayer in 2499, Daemonslayer, Giantslayer and Beastslayer in 2500, Vampireslayer in early 2501, and Giantslayer in later 2501.

In the Ignorant Armies anthology- some time before Beastslayer was written- it mentions a major event- the Siege of Praag, in 2500.

Wouldn't it be easier to admit that GW are notoriously bad at maintaining their game worlds. They're inconsistent and frequently intentionally rewritten to suit some new purpose. Parallel worlds is just another excuse.

[Count Demandred]

I think there's two explanations, 1- he changed the vampire s name because no one knows who krieger is or 2- He was talking about the short story written long ago where Gotrek and Felix met Manfred in a haunted castle and manfred eventually teleported/turned into a bat to escape. This story was later retconned in Giantslayer to be in a parallel universe that never actually happened.

I remember that one, Gotrek cut him with his axe didn't he? And he fled up some stairs in a puff of smoke or bats... As far as I can remember, anyway.

[Athelassan]

Wouldn't it be easier to admit that GW are notoriously bad at maintaining their game worlds. They're inconsistent and frequently intentionally rewritten to suit some new purpose. Parallel worlds is just another excuse.

Well, we know that. But knowing that isn't particularly helpful when you're trying to put together a timeline.

[DarkChaplain]

Now now, none of you have actually read the recent G&F stories, I assume.

Take a look at what Josh Reynolds wrote not too long ago:
http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-prod...ess-ebook.html

Yes, its about said scene about Mannfred's ressurection, including the girl, the necromancer, a few companions and, of course, Felix and Gotrek.
It is there, it is great and it has never been forgotten. It just happens that the duo has travelled the old world for a long time and revisited a lot of places time and again, for good or bad. From the timelines alone should be obvious that they had to venture into Sylvania multiple times - it looks like the lot of you is quite interested in debating these timelines and inaccuracies. Thing is, they haven't been updated with the latest fluff, and you are taking them for granted, maybe even without reading the actual stories mentioned.

The ressurection of Mannfred von Carstein happened, Gotrek & Felix were around, it just did not fit into a full novel so far, but it hasn't been forgotten and arrived as a stand-alone eNovella at last. It's a good read, I recommend reading it to clear up the misunderstandings Trying to put together a complex timeline that stretches over a dozen novels, countless short stories and novellas is quite a foolish thing to attempt if you don't have all the pieces at the ready.