How to Win a game of Warhammer

[thrawn]

ya no kidding.

i agree that warhammer is far from a strategy game, but some do not.

it is difficult to find "realistic" games that acutally need some kind of strategy. the best i've even found is company of heros, other then that, most are just games meant for fun.

one thing my friends and i used to do, was pick an army, nothing over the top, then put a number in a hat, and draw a random army. this basically forced you to adapt quickly, you cannot "customize" what you want, and had to deal with just "chaff" to win the day.

i also find that those games are also fun because you don't have too much "invested" in the army. meaning, if you lose, or your rolling badly, you don't care, as it's not your army and your kind of not expecting to win anyways!

[OrcGoblinFTW]

Shooting is still a big part as I see it, you just have to work a bit more for it, either with good positioning or preparation with debuffing/buffing magic. Drop someones T and template weapons hit like hammers, drop someones leadership and you have a good chance to make them turn tail with some regular shooting. Countless of times I've positioned my lovely trio of sallies at the right angle to make their templates hit hard, often dropping entire groups to 60% (sometimes even less!) of starting value. Specialized shooting (such as poisoned attacks, ranged killing blow, sniper, and multiwound shooting) can let you drop stuff you would rather not face in melee.

Ranged Killing blow? Who the heck has ranged killing blow? It was my understanding it only applied to hand to hand. I've never been hit by that before.

I don't think BS shooting has gotten nerves, but the increase in unit sizes means that to be effective it either has to be supported with artillery or be used en masse. The odd handgunner or archer unit won't cut it, but massed firepower, especially when concentrated on particular units, can still win games.
Take, for example, large units of NG archers with fanatics, with Gift of the Spider God cast on them. Enough shots make that a scary unit.

Woot! You can say that again!

[Valaraukar]

Ranged Killing Blow:
Ogres - Scraplauncher
Wood Elves - Waywatchers

I believe off the top of my head.

@IcedCrow - Indeed this is my feeling that the biggest factor in most games is relative list strength as there is such a range and they vary in relative power depending upon what they're up against, followed by luck especially at those key moments, followed by player 'skill' assuming a certain level of basic competence.

[Spiney Norman]

@sexist_hero:

So if watching an opponent deploy most of his important bits before you doesn't change your deployment, then you are doing what I talked about - creating tempo in the deployment phase by making your opponent react to you. In this case, I feel like you might be better served deploying the meat of your line first, forcing his/her hand, and then your chaff in reaction to his units - that way you are reacting with much fewer points/% of your army and you are grabbing the reins of the game from the very beginning.

Some of the guys at our club went through a phase of completely non-reactionary deployment last year. Each of us secretly drew a map of our deployment zone and the positioning of all our units then revealed them simultaneously. It was a great experience because it made you think about placing your units according to your battle plan rather than reacting to the enemy force.

Reactionary drops are sometimes necessary in a normal game, obviously you want your unit with the flaming banner to deploy opposite the Hydra because nothing else in your army can handle it etc but in the main I try to have the majority of deployments semi-decided in my head before my opponent puts down a unit, aside from any redirectors and hard counters for my opponents best units.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Depending on the army, that's true. I'm not going to mention the more minor powers that specialized in ranged combat as a means of winning battles. Of the major players - the Romans, The Greeks, the Mongolians - Only the Mongolians specialized in archery, and that was due to their unprecedented mobility.

The Persians were a pretty major power that used massed bows, if not always for winning.

I've recently read an article in Ancient Warfare about small-scale tests using replicas of Hoplite armour and Persian bows with regard to Marathon. The author estimated that the Persians fired 30,000 shots over the time it took the Greeks to cover the distance between them for some 180 casualties including melee.

Ranged Killing Blow:
Ogres - Scraplauncher
Wood Elves - Waywatchers

Empire: Witchhunter.

[IcedCrow]

@IcedCrow - Indeed this is my feeling that the biggest factor in most games is relative list strength as there is such a range and they vary in relative power depending upon what they're up against, followed by luck especially at those key moments, followed by player 'skill' assuming a certain level of basic competence.

Indeed. If someone wants to find their true tactical accumen, then it would come down to playing against an identical list where the list strength is taken out of the equation.

Also witch hunters have ranged killing blow as well with their brace of pistols / repeating hand gun. Nasty stuff.

[Jezbot]

sorry guys, i cannot agree. why? because my entire argument is based on the fact that your opponent is as skilled, or more skilled then yourself. therefore, your "subtle" moves and "ingenious" deployment is the same with him. he has a game plan, and as your deploying and moving he's doing the samething!! why is it that he won that combat and you didn't? you rolled bad! that's why! and a good player always thinks of ways to minimise this.

Well, yeah. I mean, if we assume two players are equally skilled then the win will come from something other than skill. The point, of course, is whether or not some players are actually more skilled than others, whether your assumption 'your opponent is as skilled, or more skilled than yourself' is valid. You can't just throw that in as an assumption and then declare your conclusion must be right.

I mean, I'm more on your side than the alternative, and think the amount of skill involved is way overstated. But the way you framed your argument demanded a comment.

[anyone4tea?]

NUMBER ONE TIP FOR BECOMING A SUCCESSFUL WARHAMMER PLAYER.

"Don't play the battle, play the scenario".

It was originally in relation to BFG but it's still the best piece of advice I ever gave me.

[Chicago Slim]

Good points. I have seen people change tactics due to a large gunline staring at them. If they looked at mathhammer they wouldn't be too worried, but there is still the psychological factor. It's not a game rule or mechanic but is certainly a part of the game.

I've seen the opposite happen a couple of times this year, when opponents faced off against my 2400 point Wood Elves list, which features 4 units of 10 Glade Guard each. Around turn 3, they start to get this worried look as they realize that their big A-block has now taken over 20 wounds, with little end in sight (I'm playing a points-denial MSU list, and while I prefer to bait and redirect Deathstars, I've had to confront a couple of them square-on, because of scenarios-- sometimes, in Blood and Glory or Watchtower, there's just nothing for it but to hunt down the big unit and wreck it...)

Here's my suggested list of armies that I've seen field effective, solid lists with considerable BS-based shooting troops in 8th ed:
Daemons of Chaos (Flamers are still mean)
Dark Elves (actually, I'd consider this borderline: repeating crossbows aren't that fearsome)
Dwarfs (more about Crossbows than Thunderers, honestly: here, it's a matter of having the great weapons, and being dual-purpose units)
Ogre Kingdoms (2 units of 6-8 Leadbelchers are de riguer here in Chicago)
Orcs and Goblins (both 7 ppm Arrer Boyz and 3 ppm gobbos)
Skaven (honestly, I didn't expect this one, but those Jezzails and the weapon teams are both still capable of making game-changing impacts, if skillfully used)
Wood Elves (see above)

I personally haven't seen Lizardmen, or Empire, or Tomb Kings, or Brettonia make much of a difference based on troop-based (Infantry/Monstrous Infantry) shooting, but I've heard a few people make the argument. I haven't actually even heard anyone suggest that High Elf Archers are viable.

So, of the armies that have significant access to serious troop-based shooting, I've seen 7 do quite well, heard others claim that they've seen 4 do well, and am deeply skeptical about only one. That, to me, doesn't sound like troop-based shooting is dead, or inviable.

Now, *gunlines* as they were used in 7th ed *are* dead, and that's a good thing: they were boring, skill-less builds. Good riddance.

Ranged Killing blow? Who the heck has ranged killing blow? It was my understanding it only applied to hand to hand. I've never been hit by that before.

Wood Elf Waywatchers (a Rare choice, 24 ppm, S3 longbows with killing blow and an unusually high BS. They also have extra hand weapons, and scout and skirmish. Even with all that, they're quite expensive, and are part of an army that doesn't currently see a lot of play-- I've been playing a Wood Elf army lately, but even I chose to go with somewhat cheaper Core scouts...)

[Jezbot]

So, of the armies that have significant access to serious troop-based shooting, I've seen 7 do quite well, heard others claim that they've seen 4 do well, and am deeply skeptical about only one. That, to me, doesn't sound like troop-based shooting is dead, or inviable.

Now, *gunlines* as they were used in 7th ed *are* dead, and that's a good thing: they were boring, skill-less builds. Good riddance.

Yeah, I agree it's a very good thing that gun line is finished (for now at least, given the GW build cycle I'm sure it'll show up again in 3 to 5 years).

It's interesting to note that the lists you showed were, for the most part, missile troops that were still pretty capable once the real fighting started. This is probably the only way there is right now to find a balance between making missile troops viable, without allowing armies to build competitive gun line lists.

I'm actually experimenting with crossbowmen detachments in an Empire army, and trying to make my parent unit buffs turn the crossbowmen into a handy little extra fighting unit once the major combat begins. It isn't working too well, but there is some fairly limited potential there for an army that might not be optimum, but is effective enough.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Warhammer takes as much skill as reading, for example. However, that is often a considerable hurdle...

Also witch hunters have ranged killing blow as well with their brace of pistols / repeating hand gun. Nasty stuff.

Wood Elf Waywatchers

Both of which have already been mentioned on the same page. WH cannot take repeater pistols or repeating hand guns btw.