It was much the same as it is now but got one more shot. It was more the fact that an ulthwe army got to make two squads of guardians bs4 for free while dire avengers only had 12" range.Originally Posted by RandomThoughts
It was much the same as it is now but got one more shot. It was more the fact that an ulthwe army got to make two squads of guardians bs4 for free while dire avengers only had 12" range.
Gods in 3.0 D&D play dice with the universe, sometimes throw the dice behind the DM's screen where they cannot be seen and then count as getting the best possible result.
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I agree with Bergen and major league kudos to Reece for taking them to Adepticon and doing so well. People love to underestimate certain armies and it makes me smile to see an unorthodox list do that well in a highly competitive environment.
Footdar is nice.
Maybe it's the eldar players ultimate challange as without the crazy fast tanks that deploys your highly specialized troops, it's really hard to get them to do the right thing.
Anvil/Hammer lists with wraithwall was viable some years ago. Don't really know now.
Wraithseer, Eldrad, 2 Wlords, 1 squad Wguards, Scorpions and Stormguardians as countercharge, Pathfinders as support. That's what I would use.
To the OP: Congratulations and don't worry about the hating. Whenever anything pops up that isn't the norm, you will get a whole horde of people on the Internet telling you it'll never work. I have a lot of respect for what you did, and I hope tanks as a necessity will disappear soon as I hate painting tanks.
That's why I went with an all Khorne Daemon army.
Hopefully, the 6th ed. will allow us to play différently. As a Biel-Tan player, I would really like to play a rainbow-full-aspect army!(with or without tanks...) And anyway, I don't care that much if I don't win every time!
Everytime one person places 16th in a tournament, I imagine there's hundreds of Footdar players who've been Battle Cannoned/Heavy Flamered/Tank Shocked/Assaulted etc etc off the table
I've got nothing against the idea of "Rainbow Foot Lists of Synergy" (tm), just GW can't write a balanced ruleset (either codex or main rulebook) to make them viable. FW (amazingly for once) seem to be on the right track with Corsair Squads. 10 models with 2x Fusion Guns, 2xEMLs and Jetpacs. Still fall over to a stiff breeze though mind
Don't underestimate foot lists too much.
Part of the problem is the way some tournaments operate. If a tournament organizer doesn't lay down enough terrain and has pre-determined objective placement in missions it favours mech lists. If a mission allows a foot list to remain fairly static, it can do well.
Which also explains why you see alot of CWE players going Footdar. What other army can field their best long range AT on a walking platform? Or has nearly army-wide Fleet? Or can fire heavy weapons on the move in an infantry unit?
So the theory is that Footdar can operate as a mobile gunline. While everyone's spamming single shot AT, you're not fielding anything they're paying premium points to shoot.
The problem? The top tier lists are better than average at everything. Missile Launchers can fire frag. IG don't have to be in their Chimeras (believe it or not, they get alot of lasguns). Grey Hunters can shoot. Grey Knights can shoot and still move and charge.
Personally, I think if Sieze Ground and Kill Points were the only missions you saw, we'd see more gunline style armies. Or if having a single heavy weapon in a troop unit didn't waste the potential of the unit one way or the other - which is where you sometimes see things like the '3 Trueborn, 2 Lance' units.
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I have played a footdar list for quite some time (but at 1500 points) and the main quality I have found that it has is that it actually is fun to play.
You have options, multiple combos that don't break if one component is taken out (well ok except Eldrad), you have something to do constatly, you rearly run out of usefull models.
I find that it presents so many threats, and enough hard ones, that the opponents target control gets overloaded.
Guardians are a must imo, they are cheap and with the avatar score to the last man, and are so low in the food chain that they will score more often than not. Plus they are a source for an extra S9 shot, and a Wraithlord babysitter for backfield. So take a unit of ten with a Launcher and sit them on an obgective backfield with a Wraithlord in cover nearby. They are both doing their jobs and can't be easily moved. Or you can go another way and have a cheap unit to sacrifice. But that S9 and the fearless are real points multiplyers. I use a 20 strong squad. And it is really quite hard to have to get rid of every single one of those fearless dudes, that also give cover, because they are coming for your objective. And ignore the Avatar coming with them.
A few points here:-
Mech wins again here. cf Nova Open which is putting increasing amounts of LOS blocking terrain on the table. Focus shifts from static fire support unit to mobile fire shooty units. This still favours mass mech, and Footdar just don't have the tools to deal with 9+ vehicles
Pretty much most armies can move and shoot AT, and are better at it than Footdar. Dreads can move 6" and fire two heavy weapons, BA Razors can move 12" and still fire their weapon etcWhich also explains why you see alot of CWE players going Footdar. What other army can field their best long range AT on a walking platform? Or has nearly army-wide Fleet? Or can fire heavy weapons on the move in an infantry unit?
Not sure what you're getting at here ? Maybe give some examples ?So the theory is that Footdar can operate as a mobile gunline. While everyone's spamming single shot AT, you're not fielding anything they're paying premium points to shoot.
I really think you're underestimating the ability of mech to move and shoot...The problem? The top tier lists are better than average at everything. Missile Launchers can fire frag. IG don't have to be in their Chimeras (believe it or not, they get alot of lasguns). Grey Hunters can shoot. Grey Knights can shoot and still move and charge.
Sorry, but ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz for any return to 4th ed gunlinePersonally, I think if Sieze Ground and Kill Points were the only missions you saw, we'd see more gunline style armies. Or if having a single heavy weapon in a troop unit didn't waste the potential of the unit one way or the other - which is where you sometimes see things like the '3 Trueborn, 2 Lance' units.
Eldar is one of the few listst that do foot army well.
They suffer from a lack of effective anti-tank (S6 spam war walker is about as good as it comes for eldar) but other than that, they have great damage potential, good psychic defence and with the obligatory Eldrad, have the durability to weather most incoming attacks.
I'm not sure whether it is possible for footdar to stand up to foot GK, but they should do well enough. I always found Wave Serpents to be overpriced, undergunned and just all-around terrible. Falcons with a compliment of Firedragons on the other hand, not so much.
Compilation of my Necron Batrep detailing the conquest of the Sautekh Empire - The Sautekh Chronicles
"You are but ephemeral whereas we are forever"
- Imhotekh the Stormlord
Foot DA, SW, GK, BA, IG, Tyranids, Tau, Orks >>>>>>>>>Footdar
Deathwing is a bit different, Tyranids doesn't have a choice, Tau suits is a very different dynamic, as is an Ork horde.
SW, GK, BA, IG can play footsoldier, but their mech list is vastly superior.
I guess I need to qualify that statement, Eldar is one of the few armies where their foot list is better than their mech list.
Compilation of my Necron Batrep detailing the conquest of the Sautekh Empire - The Sautekh Chronicles
"You are but ephemeral whereas we are forever"
- Imhotekh the Stormlord
How often have I heard that?
Beside that, if you thing of tanks in form from big bad mcs, then no, tyranids goes better without the mcs, meaning, going better without tanks.
Another lol that came to my mind, if you thing of demons, they have a "mech" unit. I think they also go better without their "mech".
Sry. Couldn't resist.
Quit hating on a list that worked people. Its stuff like this that makes people quit playing 40k and go to different games because regardless of how good you do there are always the bastards who get nitpicky about how you could have done better. I am starting to believe that half the people hating in this thread are the ones that got beat by him in the earlier rounds.
Once again Congrats for doing well with a nicely designed and often unappreciated army build.
@Reivax26, It wasn't actually the OP that did this. It was Reecius from Dakka that placed. The OP just wanted to discuss the list and what some of it's strengths are.
And I disagree with the people who are saying that a lot of the other foot lists do better than Eldar foot lists. They don't. Foot Eldar have the ability to close with other foot lists and put out far more firepower at 24 inch threat range and can also assult after doing so.
I think the people dissing it need to re read Reeces battle report and see what the list actually has the capability of doing.
I'd disagree there as well I'm afraid. Footdar can't actually beat Mechdar as they have no way of dealing with multiple AV12 skimmers.
Hey all, I went and got a login just to say...
I hope no offence is caused, but it looks like after the 2nd post there aren't really any answers here to the OP. Most of the posts seem to be about the merits of Footdar in the abstract- their 'power level' against other armies, I guess, and whether it's possible to win with them, which is a fine discussion to have... but the OP was asking specifically HOW Reecius won with them. I'm sure they are, in the abstract, a sub-optimal army- pretty much everything seems weak and/or overcosted- but clearly winning isn't impossible. So the question is: how did he overcome this sub-optimalness? How did he make effective use of the units? How did the units work together? If people are looking to get better at the game, I think those are the questions to answer...
I'm totally fine having that discussion. Apologies if my earlier posts were too competetive-theory focused. But I will point out that his post explaining his strategy wasn't very informative. He just says that he knows his opponents, sets up short range firefights that work to his advantage and has his units support each other. But that's advice that applies to any army. Maybe Footdar have some firepower advantages at 24", but it sounds like their fragility and lack of mobility are very difficult to handle properly, and thus prone to bad matchups and poor luck.
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Tales of the Seferim Sector: an ongoing series of narrative battle reports.
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Better as in, against other people, unless your assessment of what consititues a better list is a mirror match between the two.
Even in the case of Mechdar, sure a few Falcons with Firedragons are great for the mech meta, but it's not really spammable because Serpents are so expensive. It's a mistake trying to beat marine MSU at their own game.
Compilation of my Necron Batrep detailing the conquest of the Sautekh Empire - The Sautekh Chronicles
"You are but ephemeral whereas we are forever"
- Imhotekh the Stormlord
Yes, Mech is better. But how much better? Do you always need the potential to kill 9+ vehicles a turn or can you, you know, use tactics to take out key units, bog down the other units and then attrition out the next set of key units on your next turn? Marine/IG Mech is a hammer, you don't need finesse to use a hammer. In fact, finesse won't help you at all with mech marine/IG, even if you're a veteran player.
I'm not saying Footdar is superior to Mech. Mech is simple and effective. Foot lists are complex and have some issues but they can be made to work. All I'm saying is, don't get cocky just because you ripped off a netlist, Footdar will still make you play the game.
I'm sorry, name another army list with a basic infantry Troop selection that can move and shoot a heavy weapon. This was my point. Yes, I'm well aware that other armies buy vehicles to move and shoot, this was also my point about why Mech lists are so popular. Eldar Guardians weapon platforms, however, turn heavy weapons into assault weapons... wouldn't you want to take advantage of that if it was in your codex? Sure, you would still be keen on Razors and Rhinos for survivability and more guns but it'd go a long way towards evening the number of foot infantry you'd see on the board, yeah?
Eldar players are looking for new ways to take advantage of their codex's strengths. When was the last time you saw a marine player look for a new way to play their codex? This sort of thing should be encouraged because it's healthy for the hobby... and everyone's sanity.
You know how people play with mech lists? Imagine being able to play that way with foot infantry, everything moving and still shooting. Only, when the other guy deploys his hideously cheap Meltaguns, you don't care because they're not using a 10pt melta weapon to take out a vehicle worth ten times its own value. Instead they're taking out an 8-10pt infantry model... assuming they hit and, possibly, you fail your cover save.
HA! Dude, see my icon? I play MECH DARK ELDAR. What I'm saying in this point is that Footdar are still behind the 8-ball because SW, GK and IG Mech can still put out a ton of Anti-infantry firepower. You seem to have gotten confused because I was giving a balanced perspective... I know, I know, you just don't see that on the internet, I understand.
Sorry but ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz for the continual dominance of the 5th ed mech lists. It's become as bad as the 4e gunline.Sorry, but ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz for any return to 4th ed gunline
Archon of the Ravenous Void Kabal.
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