Space marines are overpowered because of their 3+ save.

[Chaos257]

They ignore too many AP4 heavy weapons. For most other races 3+ is really special hard to get armour. They're too cheap for dudes with such high saves, with AP5 bolters combined with the array of tactical options and now "special" options available to only marine books.

The idea at first was marines were expensive and most weapons reduced the save to 4+ (in 2nd edition) but after that marines have been a fundamentally broken part of the game.

They should be maybe 1 or 2 points cheaper, but have a 4+ save instead.

Then you'll see other races besides marines will be decent on the table.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Kinda takes the point of Marines away if you make their save lower. Increase the points maybe. But the 3+ has been their signature.

[Chaos257]

Kinda takes the point of Marines away if you make their save lower. Increase the points maybe. But the 3+ has been their signature.

4+ is an elite save for just about every single other army. Somehow marines just get this magical 3+ on EVERYTHING and don't seem to pay any points for it :S

[Battleworthy Arts]

Is this sarcastic?

[The Marshel]

i really hope it's sarcastic....

For starters 3+ isnt half as durable as you might think. cause 9 wounds and you'll kill 3 marines. given the usual number of power armoured bodies in a standard marine army and the volume of fire that can be achieved by most every army, i fail to see a problem

[Chaos257]

Ok so a genestealer should be 20pts but have a 3+ save. Sounds fair. Updated codex. Go.

[Rated_lexxx]

Is this sarcastic?

In all it's glory

[Chaos257]

In all it's glory

20pts genestealers with 3+ save, sounds fair right ?

[Kakapo42]

4+ is an elite save for just about every single other army. Somehow marines just get this magical 3+ on EVERYTHING and don't seem to pay any points for it :S

4+ is a standard save for Tau and Imperial Guard can in some instances purchase a 4+ save on their standard units for a small cost (at least I think they can, somebody please correct me if I am wrong). Most armies with 5+ or 6+ as their save can compensate with mass numbers (which is what they're supposed to do to make up for it), while those that can't such as the aforementioned Tau have a 4+ as standard and 3+ or 2+ on everything else. The only faction it's a real problem for is the Eldar (both kinds), but they have speed to compensate (in theory at least). And that's without factoring the enormous amount of 4+ saves you can get from cover.

Another thing to consider is that while Space Marines get a 3+ save as standard, many factions have ready access to 3+ save ignoring AP3 weaponry or power weapons (or something to that effect).

Besides Space Marines have always been described as being clad in nigh-impregnable power armour that's built like a tank and takes an enormous amount of firepower to crack. There may be many Space Marine subgroups that are excessively powerful, but their save is not the problem.

[Chaos257]

4+ is a standard save for Tau and Imperial Guard can in some instances purchase a 4+ save on their standard units for a small cost (at least I think they can, somebody please correct me if I am wrong). Most armies with 5+ or 6+ as their save can compensate with mass numbers (which is what they're supposed to do to make up for it), while those that can't such as the aforementioned Tau have a 4+ as standard and 3+ or 2+ on everything else. The only faction it's a real problem for is the Eldar (both kinds), but they have speed to compensate (in theory at least). And that's without factoring the enormous amount of 4+ saves you can get from cover.

Another thing to consider is that while Space Marines get a 3+ save as standard, many factions have ready access to 3+ save ignoring AP3 weaponry or power weapons (or something to that effect).

Besides Space Marines have always been described as being clad in nigh-impregnable power armour that's built like a tank and takes an enormous amount of firepower to crack. There may be many Space Marine subgroups that are excessively powerful, but their save is not the problem.

A standard marine unit is hands down a better unit than anything any other basic uni a race can produce.

I agree with you in theory, however having read the new codexes I think marines get just as much special stuff as eldar/tau AND they get everything with a 3+ save.

Thunderwolf cavarly ? Hello ??? Since when were marines supposed to be 3+cavarly gene-stealers (basically) with invulnerable save and bunch of other rules.

As a stand alone marine.... kinda makes SOME sense if other armies get special things that marines don't but... that is not really the case with the SM codex and definitely not the case with the other marine dexes. Grey Knights ... wtf ? Storm bolter and a power weapon and a 3+ save ? 20 points ? Really ? Can me stealers please give up some initiative, fleet and rending to get THAT ?

[Schismotive]

Point for point marines are very lack-luster; for a full tac squad you pay around 160 points, where IG can get a vet squad with three meltas, and a chimera for less... just one of many examples. But I will agree that grey knights are a bit unfair.

[Deadnight]

A standard marine unit is hands down a better unit than anything any other basic uni a race can produce.

I agree with you in theory, however having read the new codexes I think marines get just as much special stuff as eldar/tau AND they get everything with a 3+ save.

considering that they're genetically engineered supersoldiers wearing some of the best personal armour in the galaxy, a 3+ save is fine. go play some games, and shoot stuff at them. they go down easily enough.

cheaper marines with worse armour means they die come in huge numbers, and die like flies. hardly the epic imagery people like to see from the settings' protagonists, eh?

[Askari]

A standard marine unit is hands down a better unit than anything any other basic uni a race can produce.

That's kinda the whole point. Someone has to be the best, and in 40K it's Space Marines. That oddly doesn't make them overpowered in the slightest, funnily enough.

[Battleworthy Arts]

The only time I ever see marines win is when they are playing against marines.

[Chaos257]

That's kinda the whole point. Someone has to be the best, and in 40K it's Space Marines. That oddly doesn't make them overpowered in the slightest, funnily enough.

They should be 25 points per model.

[Kakapo42]

Thunderwolf cavarly ? Hello ??? Since when were marines supposed to be 3+cavarly gene-stealers (basically) with invulnerable save and bunch of other rules.

As a stand alone marine.... kinda makes SOME sense if other armies get special things that marines don't but... that is not really the case with the SM codex and definitely not the case with the other marine dexes. Grey Knights ... wtf ? Storm bolter and a power weapon and a 3+ save ? 20 points ? Really ? Can me stealers please give up some initiative, fleet and rending to get THAT ?

This is true, but the problem with those units is not their 3+ save, it is instead rather their low cost, or their other powerful abilities, or both, people's opinions seem to vary on which (I personally think both). Standard Marines from the normal Space Marine codex are much more manageable.

[Askari]

They should be 25 points per model.

Funny how typical wisdom considers Tactical Marines pretty medicore even at their current cost..

[Gustovic]

seems that someboby has been beaten by GK another time...

[Bloodknight]

Imperial Guard can in some instances purchase a 4+ save on their standard units for a small cost (at least I think they can, somebody please correct me if I am wrong)

Only on veterans at slightly less than 50% of the unit's basic cost. Which is still kind of expensive because while a 4+ save suggests 50% survival rate, you don't get actually get to take a ton of these saves since most guns apart from basic weapons are AP4+.
Personally, I'd just buy 50% more dudes that carry their own guns and get my actually working most of the time 4+ cover save for free .

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

A standard marine unit is hands down a better unit than anything any other basic uni a race can produce.

Meh, the Tactical squad is very mediocre. I'd take my Ork boyz over them any day of the week. Sure, they die easier, but I get many more of them and their offensive capabilities are much better. For all the hype in the background, your normal marine is kind of underwhelming in 40k.