Tell me about Kings of War game sizes.

[Bubble Ghost]

I'm quite enthusiastic to give KoW a shot with my WFB figures, as part of a drive to start using my Warhammer minis again that also includes test driving WFB8 (which I'm less enthusiastic about, but I figure I ought to at least try it).

Convincing people at my club to at least try it out should be relatively easy, we're an experimental bunch, especially if we already own the relevant models.

I'm curious about game sizes though. What are the smallest and largest points values that you can have a "proper" game of it at? You know what I mean. Like the way you CAN play 40K at 500 points, but it's just a novelty, you wouldn't want to do it every week. And you CAN play it at 4000 points but you need silly extra rules to make it work properly and even then it's still not really the same game. I get the impression Kings of War is the kind of game where this Goldilocks Zone is a bit larger than with GW's efforts, but it still must have boundaries.

In particular, how does 1000 points go? I have a (gasp!) painted Vampire Counts army, but it's pretty much obsolete for WFB thanks to a combination of game size creep, lost models and out-of-production miniatures. If I can find a fantasy wargame I can actually use it for, that would be lovely. Clearly you CAN play KoW at 1000 points, but is that going to be any more than a novelty?

[Maccwar]

I've played games from about 1000-2000 points with the 2000 point game looking quite spectacular with the number of troops on the table.

1000 points will work fine and play very quickly - at that size you should be able to get through at least two games in an evening.

The new version of the rules will be released shortly - sign up for the newsletter on the Mantic site to get a free PDF download when it becomes available.

[Bubble Ghost]

Cool, thanks - but what do you mean when you say "works fine"? Does KoW "work fine" at 1000 points in the same way 40K "works fine" at 500 points? Or is it actually a satisfying gaming experience for reasons other than novelty? Would I be happy with having a 1000 point army that I never added anything to, in the way a 40K army might be said to be "finished" at 1500 points because it had reached the optimum points value bracket..?

What I'm trying to get at here is, what's the KoW equivalent of a 1000-1750 point game of 40K, or a 2000-2500 point game of WFB? I don't mean to sound like I don't believe you or anything, it's just that if you asked a bunch of 40K fans whether the game worked at 500 points, they'd probably say yes, but that's not the whole story...

[Maccwar]

1000 Will give you a good game but I have some big armies so I prefer to play at 1500 or so. Cost out a 1000 point force and you'll see it can add up to a decent sized army.

[Don_Silvarro]

Well, since you insist on using GW similes, I personally find that:

A 1000pts game of KoW feels like playing 1500pts of WFB - quick and dirty, fits well on a 4x4 board, yet allows for interesting challenges during army construction

A 1500pts game of KoW feels like playing 2000-2200pts of WFB - big satysfying game, allows you to take some fun stuff in your army but doesn't completely eliminate choice (ie. you can't afford everything and the kitchen sink too)

A 2000pts game of KoW feels like playing 3000-3500pts of WFB - big epic game with huge sweeping units. Opens up new army construction possibilities, but offers new challanges as well (eg. if you take all those units, can you still make it a cohesive force and create a battleline that works)

Over 2000pts in a game of KoW gets pretty ludicrous, you'd probably be pressed for room on a 6x4 table. It's pretty much Kings of War: Apocalypse (with a caveat that it actually still works as a game, unlike the actual 40k Apocalypse rules)

If I remember correctly the last Invitational Tournament was 1500pts. The Garragehammer podcast that reviewed the game also cited that as a cool format to get stuck in if you have enough models (they felt 2000pts to be full of epic win, but a bit on the large side so recommended to dial it down a bit) so I guess it's as much a 'standard tournament format' (like 2200 in WFB or 1500 in 40k) as you can get in KoW.

[Bubble Ghost]

Well, since you insist on using GW similes

Oh, come on. I know people who've seen the light love a chance to chuckle at the proles who think the gaming world revolves around GW, but what point of reference do you suggest would have been more appropriate, given that this is a GW forum?

Anyway, that's pretty much what I wanted to know. Thanks both!

[scarletsquig]

Yeah, Don's comparisons are roughly accurate, take the points value of a Kings of War army and add 50% to get the rough warhammer equivalent in terms of game size.

Keep in mind that the game is much quicker to play than fantasy, takes about half the time, and can even take 1/3rd, so it is excellent for quick games, or really, really huge games.

[The Devourer]

I disagree slightly on the comparissons to WHFB sizes- the comparissons are correct when it comes to model numbers but the feel is completely different. A 2000 point game feels very different to a 3500 point game of fantasy. I wouldn't dream of playing fantays above 2500 as it just gets bogged down, KoW on the hand remains streamlined and bigger games just give a more epic feel.
KoW is fine for 1000 points but I wouldn't go any lower aside from learning the rules. Sychronising your units gives a lot of tactics and going too small will make a fairly shallow game.
As for an upper limit, I haven't ever found one. KoW is much more streamlined and so while bigger games take longer it scales much better. So far we've got to 4000 points and it was still very playable. In my opinion big games are where KoW excels and given the choice I would always play the largest game that time allows. Seeing the equivalent of a 5000 point WHFB army laid out and knowing you can get an enjoyable game out of it is great.

[Don_Silvarro]

That's why I dislike comparisons with Warhammer - but Bubble Ghost asked for them twice explicitly, so yeah.

I am of the firm standpoint that comparing any elements of Kings of War with any elements of Warhammer is like comparing Diablo with Baldur's Gate. They're both video games and they both have swords, but that's about it.

[Bubble Ghost]

I was trying to make clear that all I was after was a vague sense of an equivalent amount of "gaming nutrition". What size of game of Kings of War makes for a meal, as opposed to a snack or a banquet. I wasn't asking anyone to compare any "elements" of the two games at all, I'm well aware they're different.

Devourer, that's exactly what I needed. Thanks.

[pigasuspig]

In my games:

500: Learning game only. Not much going on here. Maybe it would work OK, but I would want to require Troops-only.

1000: Quick evening game. Less than an hour. Enough going on to be interesting, kind of like a DBA game.

1500: My "normal" game. Less than 2 hours. You can mix in a special unit or two for each side and still have armies that make sense.

I think it would go comforatably above 2000 if you had the table space.

[mattjgilbert]

The official Mantic tournament next year will 1800 points. I'd say a 1500 point KoW game will give you roughly the same sized army as a 2000 point WHFB army (roughly mind). It'll play a lot lot faster though as scarletsquig notes.

[The Salmon Lord]

As mechanically KOW is probably closer to historical games like Black Powder or Lassalle but with Orcs and Elves than Warhammer its never a good comparison but here are some ways to give you an inkling if GW stuff is your main reference.

Dont think in terms of points so much as in simple terms of number of toy soldiers and units.

Moving and combat being much quicker (in particular combat) you can play with double the amount of guys / units in the same time maybe less. I play with 8-9 blocks of Undead infantry most of 20 figures plus a couple of big cavalry units as this is what I have in terms of made up figures. Roughly 150 figures on the table I suppose. And it takes 90 mins to finish a game.

Its not a big deal to use a big army. Thats the message to take away.

[SBSchifani]

My biggest game so far was 3500 pts per side. I used the Kingdom of Men list, and had about 475 models. My opponent used Twilight Kin with a handful of monsters, so he had less models but his army looked equally grand. It played great.

[mattjgilbert]

The game does scale very well and big games can be played in just a few hours. The biggest game we've played so far was 5000 points per side and we reached a conclusion in 4 hours. Great fun and very impressive.

[Jorgen_CAB]

We have only played games at 1000p so far (which work great with a 6x5 board) and with each having 45 minutes each to conclude a game. This mean one and a half hour as maximum for one entire game from set-up to last turn.

In all our 1000p games we have been able to basically fill the board from one edge to the other with units (more or less). But then again, both Undead and Goblin units are pretty cheap.

I presume that going up in army size will not make the number of units that many more but rather beefier units so scaling up should work very well and even a small game will get you a decent and fun game.

[mattjgilbert]

Tournament games are 45 minutes each for 1800 point games. You need to speed up

[Jorgen_CAB]

I know, we are still learning... ... but I actually don't think that we would have many more units at 1800 as we have in 1000 just more hordes and regiments (or expensive troops) perhaps. Last game I had 20 seconds left at the end...

[The Salmon Lord]

If one wants to enter tournaments you may wish to speed up but I find a simple game without the stress is still fairly quick.

[mattjgilbert]

Agreed. You can usually get in a couple of 1500-2000 point games in an evening without too much haste.