Independent Character leaving unit in difficult terrain

[edward3h]

Wanted to check if I have interpreted this correctly.

A unit with an independent character attached is in difficult terrain. Assume the character is somewhere in the middle of the other models. The player wants to separate the character from the unit in his movement phase (so they can attack separate targets). He rolls a double 1 for their terrain test.

Now the character cannot leave the unit because it is impossible to move them so that they are more than 2" apart. Therefore they have to continue to shoot and assault as a single unit until the player's next turn.

Does that sound right?

[copper.talos]

1" to the left for the IC, 1" to the right for the unit and there you go. 2" apart.

[Grit]

Wouldn't they be with 2" still so still apart of the unit,thought IC had to more than 2" away from a unit for it to not join it.

[Bunnahabhain]

No.

Assume the IC is 0.00001" away from the nearest model in the unit. Both move 1" directly away from each other. They are now 2.00001" apart, so are separate.

If they were in base to base contact, then they won't be able to legally get away from each other, as they can't get over 2" apart.

[Grit]

No.

Assume the IC is 0.00001" away from the nearest model in the unit. Both move 1" directly away from each other. They are now 2.00001" apart, so are separate.

If they were in base to base contact, then they won't be able to legally get away from each other, as they can't get over 2" apart.

/sigh.....

[Nurgling Chieftain]

IC's get move-through-cover, so roll a third die for him and hope for enough distance to get away.

Bunnahabain: That also may not work if the IC is close to two models.

[Sami]

But wouldn't the IC count as being part of the unit at that point, thus have to move at the same speed as the slowest model in the unit he joined? It leaves the unit by moving out of coherency of it, but all the while it is in coherency it is part of it. So when it starts moving, it doesn't get to use MTC unless the entire unit has it.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Maybe. That's certainly one valid interpretation. But you can't determine the timing that finely from "simply move him out of coherency", so we've always allowed the IC to use his own movement rules when leaving a unit. Never had the issue of an IC failing to leave a unit actually come up...

[TheGreatDalmuti]

In short with double 1 and that placement you can't. And you roll 2 dice for the units movement which includes the IC at the time, he doesn't get to use his move through cover special rule because he is part of the unit and can't transfer the rule to his unit. Rolling for the characterr seperately is like rolling for each other member of the unit seperately. You pick the unit, find out it's movement and then try to move the IC out of coherency.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

You pick the unit, find out it's movement and then try to move the IC out of coherency.

That's not what the rules say. It's an interpretation that IMO doesn't bear much resemblance to what's actually declared in the rules. It says to move the IC out of coherency. Nothing about doing that as part of the joined unit's movement.

[Tethylis]

The problem with your interpretation NC is that it can leave squads with IC's open to movement abuses. For example a mega armored warboss with a unit of boys should slow the unit down but by your way you could move the warboss d6" using S&P to 'leave' the unit then move the boys up a full 6" to rejoin, or a footslogging captain joined to the front of a jump unit could be moved 6" to again 'leave' the unit which then moves up 12" and has the back member land back in coherency to rejoin with the captain. It is to prevent these abuses that i agree with TGD's way of selecting and moving both unit & IC as one.

[Fangschrecken]

If they are trying to split apart in hte movment phase then don't both the IC and the unit get to move? so they would each roll and move the highest of 3d6 for the IC and of 2d6 for the unit

[Sami]

Because the IC is part of the unit when it starts its move, hence follows the usual restrictions of moving at the speed of the slowest model in the unit. It only gets to be speedy once it has actually left the unit.

This thread has also made me realise that the Baron Sathonyx of jumping him away from Beastmasters is actually illegal. He's still stuck with his 6" move until he has actually left the unit, as that's the movement speed of Beasts (which is lower than Jump Infantry).

[TheGreatDalmuti]

I would like to make a point here. 2D6 is in no way less than 3D6. It can be less and it can be more, it depends on what shows up on the dice.
When you start your movement phase in difficult terrain, the unit with the IC is just one unit. When you want to determine their speed the unit does not have move through cover. The IC can't give them move through cover. So you just roll 2D6. Not because the unit is slowed, but because that is what inffantry units roll.
The IC can't use his ability because he is part of the unit and again that is what normal units roll. Now suppose we had an IC that gave his unit move through cover. In that case you would roll 3D6 to determine the unit's movement, even though you wanted to splitt your IC, because he is still part of the unit when determening their speed. By Chieftains logic the IC would still roll 3D6 and the unit 2D6. That makes no sence.
In short. In the movement phase you move whole units. The IC is concidered to have left a unit when he has moved out of coherency. When you determine the unit's speed that hasn't obviously happened. An infantry unit moves 2D6 picking the highest when in difficult terrain. The move through cover special rule that ICs have can not be used since the rest of the unit do not have it.

[jubilex]

I would like to make a point here. 2D6 is in no way less than 3D6. It can be less and it can be more, it depends on what shows up on the dice.

Exactly.

But your interpretation doesn't work dalmuti.

As I've said to you before, consider a unit that is falling back.
It's an infantry unit, but it contains a jump pack ic.

How far does it fall back and how do you know?

[TheGreatDalmuti]

You roll the dice? Refer to units falling back for a units movement speed. Note, a units. You make one roll as per BrB for the whole unit. It's like charging. If an IC joins a unit of beasts and you declare a charge you may only charge 6". Because the unit is not a beast unit any more, so it falls to the default charge that is 6". The rules for units of different unit types apply for units of that unit type not for mixed ones.

[jubilex]

You roll the dice? Refer to units falling back for a units movement speed. Note, a units.

"Units normally fall back 2d6".

If an IC joins a unit of beasts and you declare a charge you may only charge 6".

Untrue.

This mixed unit, moves at the speed of the slowest model (note model, not unit).
Thus, quite clearly, it is the case, that a unit that contains models, capable of different speeds to other models within the unit, can exist.
This unit, simply does not have a "speed."

The rules for units of different unit types apply for units of that unit type not for mixed ones.

And yet you say this ...

I would like to make a point here. 2D6 is in no way less than 3D6. It can be less and it can be more, it depends on what shows up on the dice.

So, when we have a mixed unit, the models in which may be limited in different ways (ie how many dice you may roll) and its the slowest model that determines the units maximum speed, as you say, a model that can move 3d6 could well move less than a model that moves 2d6, what is it that determines the units maximum movement???

= the model that can move the least.
= you need to roll 3d6 AND 2d6 to find out which ends up the lower.

The slow model limits, not the slowest unit.

[Sami]

Move Through Cover is lost by an IC when it joins a unit that does not have it (see the MTC entry in the BRB). So, at the start of the turn the IC is in a unit. If that unit does not also have MTC, it can not utilize the extra dice and just follows the normal rules for moving through cover, which is 2D6.

[Sami]

"Units normally fall back 2d6".

Yes. An exceptions for this are listed on Page 52 - 54 (Jump Infantry, Bikes and Beasts).

[jubilex]

Yes. An exceptions for this are listed on Page 52 - 54 (Jump Infantry, Bikes and Beasts).

And p11 isn't then?
A slow (note A slow model, that is A slow model in a unit does not slow the entire unit at all then?