Radical Combat Reform

[T10]

Ok, this isn't a "nice" maneuver: Player Blue has a regiment and a monster fighting against Player Red's regiment. The monster is in corner-to-corner contact with the enemy on the left side of the combat , and after a round of combat elects to make a combat reform by moving into corner-to-corner contact with a different enemy model on the right side of the combat. Maybe he wants to getinto contact with that model, or he wants to avoid an approaching Red unit poised to join the combat.



It seems legitimate:

• The monster is a unit in its own right and is entitled to make combat reforms.
• We can assume the is not moved more than twice it's Movement: Let's say this is a monster with Movement 4 or better.
• Reforming does not leave any enemy models dropping out of contact.
• The reforming model is placed into contact with an enemy in the same combat, and on the same side (front) of the enemy unit.

But dodgy...

-T10

[Valaraukar]

Certainly appears legitimate.

[Grit]

Thought you couldn't move models that were in B2B already,can only reform to bring more models into contact?

[mkhurly]

I'm not sure he can move through a unit though.

[JustinDonnelly]

The way I read the rule is that any model in B2B cannot move even if it was to move into contact with the same enemy.

[theunwantedbeing]

I can't see why it's not legal.

Dodgy yes, but legal.

[Hulkster]

If a model is in B2B contact in cannot be moved except with the make way rule.

At least that's how I have always played it

[BattleofLund]

Thought you couldn't move models that were in B2B already,can only reform to bring more models into contact?

That's what I thought too. But the last paragraph of 'Reforming from victory' on p55 states:

'The model can be in base contact with a different enemy at the end of the reform if you wish.'

As the original post says, though: dodgy, that monster's reform.

[Artiee]

What I get is its a Monster and a Unit.. The monster is not part of the unit. (monsters can't join units).

Since its 2 "units", that would not be legal.


A unit can't switch places with another unit.

A unit can't move thou a another unit.

[Smogg]

I believe you still have to keep the center point of the unit as written page 14.

[GodlessM]

I'm not sure he can move through a unit though.

This is why I am against it as well. A reform is movement after all and you are not permitted to move through a unit.

[Artiee]

I believe you still have to keep the center point of the unit as written page 14.

The FAQ removed the center point restriction for the combat reform.

[T10]

This is why I am against it as well. A reform is movement after all and you are not permitted to move through a unit.

So you'd be ok with it if the monster had sufficient Movement so that twice this value would be sufficient to move it around the other unit? Or if the monster had the Flying special rule?

[The bearded one]

While you don't need to keep the centre of the unit on the same spot when making a combat reform, I don't think you could execute a reform like indicated, where the unit/model is removed in its entirity from its original location. That opens up the possibility for absurd reforms, though this one also seems to push it a bit, with the model not simply reforming, but teleporting.

[Artiee]

So you'd be ok with it if the monster had sufficient Movement so that twice this value would be sufficient to move it around the other unit? Or if the monster had the Flying special rule?

That wouldn't be ok either. You can't move out of combat.

[MLP]

What I get is its a Monster and a Unit.. The monster is not part of the unit. (monsters can't join units).

Since its 2 "units", that would not be legal.


A unit can't switch places with another unit.

I'm pretty sure this is the answer. Each unit can can make a combat reform but two seperate units cannot swap around.

[Lord Inquisitor]

I would say "none of the models in the unit may move more than twice their Movement rate as a result of a manoeuvre" means that a unit or model executing a combat reform is actually moving. Therefore it must be able to legally move to the final position. You cannot, I would think we can agree, reform in such a manner that some of the unit are on impassable terrain, right?

I would have said that it is implicit that a unit making a reform maneuver must do so in such a way that none of the models execute a move that would be otherwise illegal (moving over units, impassable terrain, etc).

[T10]

A unit can't switch places with another unit.

You just made that up, actually. It makes sense, but it's still just made up.

That wouldn't be ok either. You can't move out of combat.

Obviously there models are moved to new positions, but I would recommand being careful with arbitrarilly slecting movement restrictions just to counter this specific abuse.

Shifting a unit left or right to get more models into combat is fair use of a combat reform, but it is effectively sideways movement, something units are not normally allowed to do as part of normal movement: it is a special maneuver and then even restricted to half movement.

It is practical to physically remove models from close combat and placing them in a new position rather than breaking up the unit an sliding the models around on the table. It's not fair to assume that a single-model unit being repositioned left or right is handled different.

It is questionable to what extent a reform can be considered movement. I don't think a unit partially within a venom thicket should be required to make dangerous terrain tests for making a reform (I don't quite see how one would reasonably keep track of which models would need to test).

There also seems to be an assumption that all combat is worked out on ground level. This is certainly the most common situation with ground troops fighting ground troops. But who's to say that models aren't making use of their special movement abilities during combat? Flying models that swoop over the ranks of the enemies, Etheral creatures slipping in and out of walls, Striders, uh, striding back and forth.

I doubt anyone would begrudge a Wight the ability to reposition on the other side of an impassable obstacle (moving through it, you see) so why not allow a flyer to do the same (flying over it). And if you can fly over an obstacle then surely you can fly over an interposing unit.

[bad dice]

You do realise its not a reform right?
A reform lets you change your facing or formation.
Not the location where the unit is at.

The fact that you don't need to reform around your centre any more does not make it legal to move the monster.

Now if it was a charterer on a monster mount that joined the unit then yes totally legal since your Chancing formation

Tough it would still earn my seal of warhammer rule bending disapproval

[Artiee]

You just made that up, actually. It makes sense, but it's still just made up.

Ok.. Show me where units can move though each other in the BRB or FAQ.