How should fluff influence the Eldar at War in battle reports/novels/IA supplements?

[Novafix]

Given that the Eldar are a race are guided by Farseers who can literally see the future and then weave their race through the best possible outcomes I would like to ask Warseer how that should influence a story about them.

My personal story writing skills not great but looking at the Eldar as a source for a story starts to cause problems when there’s conflict as far as I can see. If the Eldar are trying to achieve something important they turn to their seers who scry the future and come up with the best possible plan to achieve this goal. If the result would be failure then they wouldn’t do it and if it’s a success they know before they set out which doesn’t make for a great story as you know the outcome and who’s going to live and or die.

I appreciate that on a micro level the Seer may not be aware what someone is going to do next on a decision by decision basis but I’ve always seen them as looking at the bigger picture and only focussing on detail if it’s absolutely necessary. So I’d doubt that the Eldar could be surprised at any macro level of plot. An example of this is the Alaitoc seer report that came back as “Amagad we’re all dead no matter what we do if we go after the Culexus Pariah training camp – best to just leave them alone” source. I have read Path of the Seer and

I am aware that the Alaitoc seers aren’t great at spotting massive overwhelming forces sweeping towards them.

Is the solution (as far as writing a compelling story goes) is for the Eldar to only undertake some unavoidable & ultra-critical missions where the Farseers themselves don’t know the outcome with any solid degree of certainty. This would then have the Eldar no more in the know than anyone else and doesn’t really fit the fluff (unless their precognitive powers are enabling a very small force to mangle a vastly superior force I suppose).

So I guess there’s a few formats of story the Eldar could be placed in…

1) Farseers know they’re going to win if they do XYZ with ABC.
2) Farseers know they’re going to lose no matter what so either don’t do it or go in anyway as ‘it must be done’ for some reason.
3) Farseers are split ~50/50 and there's a political argument to be had doing it anyway (or the rescue of a lost Phoenix Lord)
4) Only have the Eldar faced with “If we don’t do this we’re 100% guaranteed to get hosed and if we do we’re not sure if we’ll actually triumph but here’s your best plan as far as we can see…over to you Autarchs.” decisions as far as a story goes?

I fully realise that the individual characters in any of those scenarios could make the story worthwhile regardless of the outcome but the question I’m trying to put together is ‘If you were writing a compelling story to keep the reader guessing as to how it pans out involving the Eldar at war how would you see the fluff affecting the writing?’

“Don’t use Seers in the story” gets you -1internet points.

[narrativium]

Just because an action is the only way to succeed doesn't mean it's easy to carry out.

Picture the eldar warrior who is told by his Farseer: our craftworld needs you to engage this Space Marine dreadnought in combat, because if you don't, it will attack the rest of our forces and many of us will die. But if you kill it, the wrath of its Chapter will hunt us down, and many of us will die. You have very little chance of killing it anyway, and it is very capable of killing you. You need to remain alive and keep it distracted for one solar day - and its power supplies will last longer than your constitution. There is no chance, none at all, that you will survive unscathed; if you live, you will be crippled for life - an awful fate to end nine thousand years of service. But there are no other choices.

Now see if the warrior can succeed.

And that's the idea when the Farseer can tell his warrior the truth. What if the Farseer's strategy relies on lying to his warrior?

Remember: it's not just about a tense struggle. It's about the cost. What is forcing your characters to act rather than run away and hide, and what are your characters sacrificing to achieve their goals?

[Gingerwerewolf]

I see the Warp having far more of an effect in this, but most importantly Farseers are not perfect.

When a Farseer predicts the future there are 1000's of Threads laid out about him. With every decision diverging them further. His "Skill" at foretelling the future is the one of working out which threads lead to what outcomes and working out the best thread for his craftworld / team / Autarch / protégé to follow. Its not perfect, as the Warp influences it, emotions and faith all mixed up with a healthy dose of fear. This added to things like Shadow in the Warp and other extra Eldar psychic abilities does somewhat hamper them


He does not, hell cannot, truly know every future, there is always an element of doubt. This also is the fact that by choosing a future he also changes the future and so must at some point accept that his vision is somewhat skewed from what he saw. Another thing is that he cannot spend all his time viewing the Future so as things change he can only try to anticipate it.

The Fateweaver - Greated Daemon of Tzeench - Can supposedly see the future completely but he still balls it up from time to time and he is old beyond any mortals ability - even An Eldar Farseers.

Thus going back to Stories

• Tell the tale from the Autachs point of view, about the Seer giving him the Lowdown about what is most likely to happen, and telling him what he must accomplish. Have the Seer tell him what will happen if he fails. (Or even better what Narrativium says above - thats way better)
• Tell it from the Seers point of view, seeing the multiple threads slowly trimmed down to the one, which should he follow? You could even have the choices that the Seer makes being so far in the future that by the end of the story the first part has not happened yet.
• Tell the tale where a Seer makes a mistake? See the Craftworld Malan'tai - How did the Farseers not see that Big Picture? Even with the Shadow of the Warp!
• Tell the tale where a Warrior is told that to do the mission he will die to make the mission a success. He then goes out, does the mission and somehow (mad fluke or whatever) survives. He returns to the Seer all smug with himself and the Seer says well done. However for the mission to be a success you have to die and kills him. The Seer is still correct, the Warrior chose to believe that the seer was rubbish etc.
• The Quest - Retrieve and Item that's use is shrouded from the Seers. Its a Psychic Item, so the Seers want it, but cannot directly track its fate. Deus Ex Machina a bit but meh...
• Voyage and Return - a Seer led group of Warlocks must go to Malan'tai for XYZ reason. However the Psychic shock of the death their is terrible warping the landscape to the Seers vision. (A bit quest like but the point is that the Seers cannot see past the emotion of the death of a Craftworld and must overcome that)
• Or Go for a the Big one - Farseers fighting the Fateweaver.

In Game terms
Id say Re-rolls are the way forward. Hated Enemy here, Choice of Reserves there etc. Make them able to do things in game that other Armies have to leave to chance. But make them pay for it (fairness)

Point is - Farseers are fallible and thus the Story can still have unexpected things in it. Its the way that the Seer deals with that is the hook. Everything else is just the fluff around the edges.

[Anggul]

Eldar should be almost unbeatable when it comes to outsmarting, outmanoeuvring and predicting to win. The way to beat the Eldar is, quite simply, to fight better than them. You almost certainly aren't going to beat them at bigger-picture plans, but planning and foresight can only get you so far when it comes to a firefight or a brawl. You have to out-fight them straight-out to do well. If you try to out-think them you're just playing to their strengths and letting them slip underneath yours.

[MajorWesJanson]

Eldar aren't omniscient. They can see into the future, somewhat, and use that knowledge to try to steer events. But "always in motion is the future."

[Theocracity]

Eldar aren't omniscient. They can see into the future, somewhat, and use that knowledge to try to steer events. But "always in motion is the future."

This. I'm not a fan of the idea that Eldar know everything, or are able to act on it. They can see the ways that potential futures interact, and can weave a path out of this, but even small changes could potentially effect the outcome.

Personally I like the idea of a Farseer looking at the strands of the future, trying to weave a path to success, but realizing that the more time he delays the more all strands of the future weave into one, doomed path.

[Anggul]

This. I'm not a fan of the idea that Eldar know everything, or are able to act on it. They can see the ways that potential futures interact, and can weave a path out of this, but even small changes could potentially effect the outcome.

Personally I like the idea of a Farseer looking at the strands of the future, trying to weave a path to success, but realizing that the more time he delays the more all strands of the future weave into one, doomed path.

And yet it's still going to be a lot more than the enemy know. Also, the Eldar generally choose their fights except in the most extreme circumstances, so you're probably fighting them just how they want you to. As I said though, this doesn't make them unbeatable at all, it just means that you're more likely to win on combat ability than the bigger picture.

[Wyrmwood]

They can also misinterpret the future. Even the most skilled Farseers will never be completely accurate all the time.

[flota]

They can also misinterpret the future. Even the most skilled Farseers will never be completely accurate all the time.

eldrad comes to my mind :P

[Denny]

Slight tangent, but there is a scene in the fantasy novel Waylander 2 where a Nadir shaman looks into the future, sees a warrior named Ulric unite his and all the other Nadir tribes and attack the civilised south, only to be beaten at the last minute by The Earl of Bronze. The tribes then break apart and fall back into war against each other.

In order to ensure Ulric’s victory the shaman decides to kill The Earl of Bronze ancestor.

What he fails to realise is that, eventually, a political marriage takes place between The Earl’s and Ulric’s children. Their child, Tenaka Khan, unites the tribes, conquers the south and becomes the Nadir’s greatest hero.

By trying to ensure Ulric’s victory, the shaman almost removes his people’s greatest hero from existence.

This is the Eldar’s dilemma. Sure, they can see a path to ensuring victory in tomorrow’s conflict, but what if the consequences of doing so cause a greater tragedy further down the line? And if they prevent that tragedy, what then?

[Novafix]

So looking at the responses the general consensus is that the future reading of the Farseers should be viewed as sketchy or flawed or ignored altogether and the story focus on an individual and how (s)he achieves something.

My question was more related to the Eldar at war though and not really the detail of an individual Eldar's heroics.

Eldar should be almost unbeatable when it comes to outsmarting, outmanoeuvring and predicting to win. The way to beat the Eldar is, quite simply, to fight better than them. You almost certainly aren't going to beat them at bigger-picture plans, but planning and foresight can only get you so far when it comes to a firefight or a brawl. You have to out-fight them straight-out to do well. If you try to out-think them you're just playing to their strengths and letting them slip underneath yours.

I think this more or less nails what I mean, the Eldar are going to know where you are and what you're overall plan is in addition to having awesome tech to help with that - not just the crystal balls of a farseer So tactically they're going to be all over you like a rash but you still might be able to beat them by virtue of being the better fighter. So if the Eldar attacked Earth they might have all the foresight and tactical advantage they want but they're still going to get murdered.

[Gingerwerewolf]

But surely then why would they even turn up at all? Surely they would forsee the fact that the enemy is just better than them and wouldnt turn up

Those fights must either be the ones that are so important that the seer needs to sacrifice his troops for a-n-other reason, or he just doesnt know the future well enough. He would know how its going to turn out including the foe being better than them.

So knowing the future that well doesnt work all the time

[Novafix]

Well, the decision to attack something may be based on the fact that if not a greater calamaty may occur in the future but to attack now is only going to have a 40% chance of success at best...the risk may be necessary.

[Connor MacLeod]

I would view it as a form of psychic information warfare. Basically you're trying to discern some accurate intel on your objective and its goals/actions, but you're also not the only one with access to that information (or neccesarily even the best suited to it.) so there's potential for misinformation, 'jamming' or other forms of interference, deception, etc. Possibly also the psychic equivalents of stealth, and so on. What's more, there's going to be multiple sources you're competing against, so that further muddies the waters.

There are also bound to be tons of factors influencing the reliability and ability to Eldar precog - the number of individuals involved is a factor (the more people, the more complicated the situation becomes.), as is time (the father into the future you're reading, the more complicated things are. Short term precog is bound to be more precise and reliable than long term precog.) The number of people you have available to read the warp likely matters as well, I doubt most Eldar Farseers do the big readings strictly by themselves (and if we go by Gav Thorpe's Eldar novels, that seems to be the case, at least going by Path of the Seer.)

And if you rely strictly on 'short term' precog to handle things, you face the problem of having only so much time in which to act. In some cases (like redeploying troops) time may not be an issue, but in other cases it could be crucial.

[DYoung]

I think plot-wise the best way to handle the Eldar is to make them pretty much all-knowing (or at least seem like it) with regards to the future and whatever else but make it so that the choices they have to make are not easy ones to make. For instance, sending a brilliant, much-loved Autarch to a battle in which he will lose his life and have his forces inevitably wiped out in order to avert an Ork Waaagh from forming 10,000 years in the future that will destroy the entire Craftworld.

This way you neither diminish the powers of the Seers nor of the Eldar heroes that will be your central characters.

[Lord Squidar]

I pondered the exact same issue regarding farseers and autarchs, and posted it on the eldar forum of 40k online. Got some interesting ideas. Basically I wanted to know the same thing, if farseers can supposedly see everything, then what is the point of an autarch as a military leader.

What it boils down to is that the farseers can only see so far ahead before fate, the warp, or whatever starts to cloud the accuracy of the event. They end up with a very general view that if we do X, we will save the craftworld from some terrible fate. X might be destroying an imperial base, finding an artifact etc. The farseers then relay this to the autarchs, who plan the best way of doing X. There is no way that the farseer would be able to predict the fate of each and every individual soldier on the battlefield either. In Path of the Seer, this is different considering the nature of the individual involved.

[Sildani]

Lots of good ideas here. The Farseers really get scratched by Schroedinger's Cat - I think it's even mentioned somewhere that the mere act of witnessing the future has an effect upon it. Also, recall that there are myriad futures and not all of them can be explored - Thirianna had caught a simple glimpse of a possible future during one of her scrying sojurns, but that was the future that came to pass. The Farseers of Path of the Seer actually answer the exact question of why there is still uncertainty of outcome when the Eldar fight - the answer is, there's simply too much to see in too little time, and there's still an element of chance in everything.

Re-read Path of the Seer, it should clear up quite a bit.