I've figured out why Wells etal are driving GW into the ground!

[PsyberWolf]

@Reinholt - you are spot on in your analysis. One thing I would add is volume discounts. GW should offer army boxes with a 10-20% discount.

[lanrak]

GWplc used to make the bigger boxed sets slightly better value for money.
But then realised thier target demographic is not bothered about price.

And now most everyone BUT thier target demoghraphic has moved to other companies products .
GW plc has lost nearly 50% of its sales volumes since 2005!

The only way to achive growth is to add more value to the minatures and/or an effective reduction in the retail price.
Adding value by improving the game play/rules.
Effecting a reduction in the retail prices ,by instagating a price freeze.
(Both funded by a structured exit strategy from self retailing.)

[Bloodknight]

But I think it's due to other factors (promotion, place) rather than price.

For me it's price, I don't have the feeling anymore that I'm getting my money's worth (and I'm one of those dudes whose IG army alone set me back several thousand Euros, and that's by far not the only army I play. If I loaded off my stuff on ebay that would probably suffice to buy a small car). Stuff looks like a ripoff now, so I went back to BattleTech which I hadn't touched for years.

[Liber]

With the rise of so many tabletop games recently (I don't recall Dropzone Commander, Bushido, Relics, Warpath, Dystopian Wars, and Dust existing a few years ago), I can't see how that assumption could be made.

I assume that the people running GW (Wells etal) are completely incompetent. There, I just made the assumption

[Omniassiah]

Well... there is a demand issue since you've just demonstrated volume is falling. I'm asking whether it's on the basis of pricing (which I think is most people's gripe) or other factors.

I.e. is it because of price that their customer base is (argueably) shrinking, or something else?

They could be losing customers because people are looking for alternative product - systems or backgrounds - as you suggest, due to lack of specialist games etc.

I can't see that the wargames market overall (in the UK at least) is growing or shrinking, so we can agree that customers are moving elsewhere. But I think it's due to other factors (promotion, place) rather than price.

Its a combination of factors, Price rises and generally ignoring Vets cause them to try other game systems, eventually they find other game systems that they enjoy, and try to pitch them to others to get a group playing them. At first most have been resistant to change because starting a new game to playable level is too expensive compared to adding options to their current 40k/fantasy army. A few price rises later and now for the cost of two units/models for your GW/fantasy army you can have a full fledged army in another system. The barrier for disgruntled vets to pull you into another companies game system has disappeared. One of the area clubs has been very resistant and basically a 40k stronghold, this year saw 3/4 of them jump into Heavy Gear. Gw has started to reach the point where further price rises will see a drastic reduction of players. I mean in the US a Land Raider will probably be $85-100 next year the cost of some other games intro boxs.

[frozenwastes]

Rather than try to go out with dignity like FASA tried (and failed!) to do, though, they've decided to ride out GW's decline in as spectacular a fashion as possible, attempting to keep up GW's financials for as long as they can to make their CV look better when they ride a golden parachute to their next jobs.

They're not looking to their next jobs, they're looking to retirement.

Kirby is already well and truly rich through the massive bonuses he awarded himself. The upper management of GW is basically pilfering from the shareholders. They're jacking up prices to keep revenue flat, then doing cost cutting measures and then bonusing themselves for returning the company to profitability. They issue themselves stock options, then do cost cutting and announce a dividend.

Whatever happens to GW, the highest level of management will all retire quite well off.

...and am I the only one who would welcome it? I mean, seriously, the sooner GW gets purchased by a white knight who actually CARES about their IP and forces some serious changes, the better.

Sure. The current management of GW has proven though don't deserve to be the custodians of the rich world and aesthetic developed by their predecessors.

[The bearded one]

They're not looking to their next jobs, they're looking to retirement.

Kirby is already well and truly rich through the massive bonuses he awarded himself. The upper management of GW is basically pilfering from the shareholders. They're jacking up prices to keep revenue flat, then doing cost cutting measures and then bonusing themselves for returning the company to profitability. They issue themselves stock options, then do cost cutting and announce a dividend.

Whatever happens to GW, the highest level of management will all retire quite well off.

It's an evil conspiracy!
But sadly by now I find it highly plausible and have to agree..

Sure. The current management of GW has proven though don't deserve to be the custodians of the rich world and aesthetic developed by their predecessors.

None of the customerbase would mind if GW were taken over by new management that cared about the warhammer IP. The problem is wether someone would actually be there to do so. Who'd want to take over a failing company after all? That is the great risk of GW under current management failing.

[iamfanboy]

None of the customerbase would mind if GW were taken over by new management that cared about the warhammer IP. The problem is wether someone would actually be there to do so. Who'd want to take over a failing company after all? That is the great risk of GW under current management failing.

Good IP never dies, it just goes into remission for a while.

If the company goes into receivership, it'll have to sell off its assets, which include the factories and the IP. D'you think whoever buys those will simply bin them?

For instance, when Ral Partha went titsup, a new company bought their Battletech stuff (Iron Wind Metals), who had a lot of the same staff as RP did but without some of the BS. Nowadays, IWM is doing pretty good; not only do they make Battletech minis, but Malifaux and a couple other games too.

[The bearded one]

Good IP never dies, it just goes into remission for a while.

If the company goes into receivership, it'll have to sell off its assets, which include the factories and the IP. D'you think whoever buys those will simply bin them?

For instance, when Ral Partha went titsup, a new company bought their Battletech stuff (Iron Wind Metals), who had a lot of the same staff as RP did but without some of the BS. Nowadays, IWM is doing pretty good; not only do they make Battletech minis, but Malifaux and a couple other games too.

The IP doesn't necessarily have to die, and can live on in computer games and literature (as those warhammer branches appear to be doing quite well) but would there be someone else willing to give the game&miniature bussines another go after GW explodes? At least on the same scale or quality (hopefully not the same price of course)? I don't think that's guaranteed. I'm sure people more knowledgable about this have a couple of examples of wargaming IPs that never resurfaced onto the wargaming table?

[Torga_DW]

The IP doesn't necessarily have to die, and can live on in computer games and literature (as those warhammer branches appear to be doing quite well) but would there be someone else willing to give the game&miniature bussines another go after GW explodes? At least on the same scale or quality (hopefully not the same price of course)? I don't think that's guaranteed. I'm sure people more knowledgable about this have a couple of examples of wargaming IPs that never resurfaced onto the wargaming table?

I'll try, what about mutant chronicles? You know, they did a movie about it a year or two back. I believe it used to be a collectable card game, and i think a miniatures game, oh probably back around 96ish. Haven't really heard from it since, although haven't been actively looking for it. Does that help?

[iamfanboy]

The IP doesn't necessarily have to die, and can live on in computer games and literature (as those warhammer branches appear to be doing quite well) but would there be someone else willing to give the game&miniature bussines another go after GW explodes? At least on the same scale or quality (hopefully not the same price of course)? I don't think that's guaranteed. I'm sure people more knowledgable about this have a couple of examples of wargaming IPs that never resurfaced onto the wargaming table?

Compared to VOX or Clan War (from Legend of the Five Rings) or the Great Rail Wars?

None of them had the established player base or brand recognition that the GW games have. The odds are that whoever buys the physical assets (and most likely the IP assets) is going to be a one-time fan of the game, rather than some faceless corporator; perhaps a group of people, including ex-GW folk, who leverage enough assets to secure the kit and kaboodle (led by Reinholt, perhaps?).

I mean, let's face it, GW is peanuts compared to the real good stuff, like Star Wars or LotR or Marvel. But it'd earn enough money that even when GW sinks the games won't go away.

[Iron Puritan]

I'll try, what about mutant chronicles? You know, they did a movie about it a year or two back. I believe it used to be a collectable card game, and i think a miniatures game, oh probably back around 96ish. Haven't really heard from it since, although haven't been actively looking for it. Does that help?

Mutant Chronicles was initially a RPG which expanded into a miniature range. The card game came later and the movie much, much later.

[Iron Puritan]

Compared to VOX or Clan War (from Legend of the Five Rings) or the Great Rail Wars?

None of them had the established player base or brand recognition that the GW games have. The odds are that whoever buys the physical assets (and most likely the IP assets) is going to be a one-time fan of the game, rather than some faceless corporator; perhaps a group of people, including ex-GW folk, who leverage enough assets to secure the kit and kaboodle (led by Reinholt, perhaps?).

I mean, let's face it, GW is peanuts compared to the real good stuff, like Star Wars or LotR or Marvel. But it'd earn enough money that even when GW sinks the games won't go away.

My guess is that the IP would be acquired by a corporate entity that would hire a ringer like Rick Priestley to oversee creative development. The nature of the corporate entity in question would largely be determined by the success (or lack thereof) of the IP in the video game market at the time of acquisition. The bigger the success, the more likely it would be big time investors. It is hard to tell whether such an entity would allow a part of its new IP to be spun off and acquired by a separate outside body.

[Sean_OBrien]

Look at it from the balance sheet.

THQ, who already is supporting GW like the vagrant child living in their basement would buy the IP and probably establish a company to handle licensing to outside sources (possibly a company like FFG - who also would be interested in not writing a check to GW every year). The metal molds which exist already would be bought up by someone for certain - over the past several decades, many plastic model companies have come and gone, but their molds still exist (often in a basement of another company if for no other reason than to keep them off the market). With this particular market though, there isn't a company who would buy them to bury them...so they would buy them and continue to have sprues popped out until the molds wear out. Since the Black Library and Forge World are seperate divisions in GW, they both might survive GW melting down. It is fairly common for successful divisions to buy themselves out of the storm that takes down the primary company. In which case, they may manage to buy the molds from what used to be GW and reform under the same or similar name (like you can still order Ral Partha miniatures from Ral Partha Europe) - or change it up completely if they feel the name would do more harm than good. In either case, they would likely be sending a royalty check to THQ.

In any event, probably the best thing that could happen would be for it to finally happen. The practices which GW management are using in order to have their balance sheets continue to make sense can only be done so long before it finally spins out of control (Wall Street is littered with publicly traded companies which have failed in a similar manner).

Remember, once it does start to happen - whoever buys GW will be getting it for pennies on the dollar, and that will likely be about the same as the check that THQ sends GW each year for Dawn of War and its related games.

[Damien 1427]

I kind of doubt it'll be THQ. They're bleeding money like you wouldn't believe, and have been slashing projects and divisions just to keep their debts in order. Last year they lost around $136 Million US.

[SunTzu]

Yeah, THQ are fighting for their life, they won't be buying anything any time soon.

[RevEv]

Comparing the success or failure of GW to the fate of other,smaller companies does not prove the hypothesis that the CEO and his cronies are driving the company in to the ground. Nor does claiming fall in sales and lessening foot fall show that their policies are purely self centred.

Take a walk down any British high street (which is where the vaste majority of Gw's B&M stores are) and you will see the problem - falling footfall in towns full stop. Even in the most populous of areas there are an increasing number of empty shops due to consumers limiting their spend on even the most essential of items, either by not spending or turning to the Internet for what they want. Shops that sell luxury and non-essential items are struggling, and even those that sell essentials are finding life difficult. That GW are seemingly bucking the trend should be celebrated and not condemned.

The drive by GW to diversify the use of their IP, and their improvement in the use of the Internet, is a sign to me that those at the top are trying to keep the company at the top of its game and maximising the profitability of its assets.

Yes, GW is more commercial and less user friendly than when many of us started in 'the hobby', but they are still producing the goods and I do not begrudge Wells et al their cut if they're still committed to allowing the production of superb miniatures with acceptable rules to use them with. GW is, after all, a public limited company and not a charity!

[Kaptajn_Congoboy]

I kind of doubt it'll be THQ. They're bleeding money like you wouldn't believe, and have been slashing projects and divisions just to keep their debts in order. Last year they lost around $136 Million US.

Yep, that was why the 40k MMO was downscaled to a singleplayer game...

[Damien 1427]

Yep, that was why the 40k MMO was downscaled to a singleplayer game...

What amused me most about that announcement was that they'd said they were not going to look at making a sequel to Space Marine, despite it doing pretty well and getting generally positive feedback, because it'd take time and effort away from the MMO.

[Sean_OBrien]

I kind of doubt it'll be THQ. They're bleeding money like you wouldn't believe, and have been slashing projects and divisions just to keep their debts in order. Last year they lost around $136 Million US.

Keep in mind that that is par for the course for video game companies. The specific process is not for this thread, but if you look at any of the publishers and observe their annual reports and operating policies you will see the exact same cycle going back to the middle of the 1990s.