General consensus on Tamurkhan's Legion of Azgorh Chaos Dwarfs

[The bearded one]

The existence of the classic models make the CD particularly interesting I think. Many people have commented here "if someone actually spends the money on building a FW CD army, then they should be able to use it". Which is fair enough, but what if it's just an old citadel CD army that has been brought out of storage? Does the fact that it cost the same as any other army back then (and had cute little stumpy one-piece plastic infantry) make it less interesting to play against them?

did they have plastic one-piece infantry? I thought the entire army used to be metal.
Regardless, I believe old and classic CD mini's will now generally still cost quite a lot secondhand, definately now that the demand is going to increase. An army of classic models is still mostly metal, so still significantly more expensive than your average modern plastic army. Our new CD player regularly scours E-bay and the like (his dwarf army is all classic metal too, wooden warmachines!) and the decent deal he got for 5 centaurs was 16 euros a pop.

[Urgat]

did they have plastic one-piece infantry? I thought the entire army used to be metal.

Yes they did, they were monopose warriors with halberds. Anyway, chaos dwarfs used to cost the same, but they're now very expensive, as you say. I bought a few, including a dozen hobgoblin warriors, and, well, ouch.

[Montegue]

As a dwarf player, I definitely have a lot of envy for the Chaos Dwarfs. They get a magic phase, huge and amazingly OP monsters, stronger, tougher, and more dangerous artillery, and basic troops with the AS of our most expensive infantry unit (the Ironbreaker). Also, Halberds that shoot people.

I have only played against them once, and I won. The bull tarus took two great weapon units to kill, one of which was my hammerers.

[The bearded one]

As a dwarf player, I definitely have a lot of envy for the Chaos Dwarfs. They get a magic phase, huge and amazingly OP monsters, stronger, tougher, and more dangerous artillery, and basic troops with the AS of our most expensive infantry unit (the Ironbreaker). Also, Halberds that shoot people.

This is what generally annoys me, what a CD army (not necessarily the Legion of Azgorh) in principle could contaib is the basic dwarf army, but with their artillery being daemoninfused and using soul ammunition, the same tough infantry as dwarfs but with expendable infantry as well (hobgoblins) and also both fast and heavy cavalry (wolfriders and bullcentaurs) but also some monsters and topping it off with magic. The idea of chaos dwarfs as dwarfs with all the missing elements tacked on was what used to make me opposed to a chaos dwarf armybook as it would be "everything that dwarfs have.. plus extra stuff! And spikes!" , but I think the legion of Azgorh is executed well enough in this regard, because their dwarf infantry is truly criminally expensive except for core with shields, resulting in significantly smaller armies with a higher focus on the daemonic toys and a very different silhouette than the dwarf army.

[Wishing]

Well the rule is you play with what base the model came with, but rebasing to new is generally the done thing. With bull centaurs it's a big change as you're effectively doubling the frontage (probably a front of 6 instead of 3) giving out plenty more attacks for no difference is recieved attacks. Looking at it a different way you can keep the unit at 3 wide and have a VERY tough unit with not much enemy contact for recieving attacks.

I'm not sure how the basing rule is specifically worded, if it says "came with" then I guess you can use whatever it was when you bought it, whereas if it says "comes with" then you'd have to use whatever the model is sold with now. I'm not sure I'd agree with you that the BC look right on big bases (will check your link in a moment) since they were clearly designed to be on normal cavalry bases back in the day. My argument isn't really about the BC though, more just a general annoyance that GW redesigns units and changes their base sizes in the process. I like armies being updated, but I don't like it when there is no concern at all for old army designs being made illegal, whether that be by model options being removed or base sizes changed.

Edit: I've now checked your army, it looks really good and the BCs are very well painted. But I still think they look like cavalry sized models put on oversized scenic bases, like if you made an orc unit of orcs on 40mm bases. Sorry.

did they have plastic one-piece infantry? I thought the entire army used to be metal.
Regardless, I believe old and classic CD mini's will now generally still cost quite a lot secondhand, definately now that the demand is going to increase. An army of classic models is still mostly metal, so still significantly more expensive than your average modern plastic army. Our new CD player regularly scours E-bay and the like (his dwarf army is all classic metal too, wooden warmachines!) and the decent deal he got for 5 centaurs was 16 euros a pop.

I totally agree that building an army out of classic CD models at the moment would probably be more expensive than two full FW armies, since the old models are OP and collector's items. I was thinking more of a scenario where a group of CD players are together talking about how much they spent on their FW CD armies, and another player joins the group and goes "look at what I found in the attic this morning, it's a CD army I bought back in '98, with all these units of plastic infantry that cost about 50p per model. anyone wanna play?" There'd be no comparison looks-wise, since the CD plastics were of the casting quality of the time, ie. terrible, but it would still be a legal, citadel CD army that would have cost not much at the time of purchase. Even though it might get grumbles that the army cost only a fraction of an equivalent FW army, I guess it would still get props and respect for being classic and rare? Unlike a Mantic Abyssal army, which I guess would only get sneers from a FW CD army owner.

On the topic of the old CD plastics though - can the Azgorh army even field regular CD warriors with regular halberds anymore? If not, maybe they were specifically left out so that people would buy the new FW models instead of just fielding their old armies...

[The bearded one]

Well, I don't think that would occur often, but when it did I think the response of other players wouldn't be irritation he got a cheap CD army, but rather envy, or simply acceptance and admiration due to the veteran status of that player, as he'd have been a player for more than a decade to have those chaos dwarfs. Our local dwarf/chaos dwarf player is our "longest serving" veteran, with lots of classic models and 'tales of the olden days' and respected accordingly. Respect yer elders

[Wishing]

Agreed. Do you think such a player would have equal "rights" to use the new FW army list, even though none of the models are FW? Not you personally, but does anyone feel like there could be an unspoken understanding that the new FW list is meant for the new FW models, not the classic citadel models?

[Lord Inquisitor]

Agreed. Do you think such a player would have equal "rights" to use the new FW army list, even though none of the models are FW? Not you personally, but does anyone feel like there could be an unspoken understanding that the new FW list is meant for the new FW models, not the classic citadel models?

Is there some problem with me using my 4th edition Empire figures with the new army book?

[MLP]

@Wishing: Cheers for the complements I tried to make the best out of the situation

I think most people don't have a problem playing against classic armies that don't look or aren't based the same, certainly in a local gaming group. It becomes a problem however when you play against people you don't know (in a GW maybe) who probably doesn't even recognise the classic models, so you have to explain what they are and what is counts as/proxy. I can also see it causing problem in tournements with base sizes especially as you could gain advantages for the differnence.

But like I said, in a friendly environment it shouldn't really be a problem. I'm sure people wouldn't force their friends to rebase their lovely painted classic models.

[cornixt]

did they have plastic one-piece infantry? I thought the entire army used to be metal.

When they first came out they were all metal except the hobgoblin wolves. Later, GW did a single monopose model for each army, so Chaos Dwarfs got a basic CD warrior, although it was huge in comparison to the metal warriors and couldn't even rank up straight.

[GrandmasterWang]

Man, the old big hat models are awesome, who wouldnt want to play with them!!!

Ive just picked up some sparkling new fw fireglaive models and I still prefer my mighty big hats.

Re: the oop plastics. I dont have the shields attached so their big axes are great weapons. Same as when I used to proxy them as dwarfs. Their axes are massive, taller than the dwarf and the hat!

I play dwarfs and chaos dwarfs. Both have their benefit. Chaos dwarfs only have 1 op monster, the rest are very reasonable. Dwarf artillery and infantry are still better. Hammerer is 12 pts. Infernal guard with great weapon (big hat plastic) is 15 pts with lower weaponskill. This is their only access to str 6 infantry. Chaos dwarfs need to pay 265 pts minimum!!!!! for access to leadership 10.

Also, if the chaos dwarfs cheap out with infantry by fielding hobgoblins..... The dwarfs get rerolls

[Lord Dan]

Sorry if I missed this guys, but can someone post a breakdown on the destroyer? Please don't post its point cost or a full statline, however a basic description of its special rules would be really helpful so I can follow the discussion a little better.

[Athlan na Dyr]

Ask, Lord Dan, and thou shalt receive:
Blazing Body: Auto S4 hit on any model in base contact at the start of the CC phase (except for other K'daai). Non magical attacks re-roll successful wounds
Fire bound Daemon: 4+ ward which increases to 2+ against flaming attacks
Burning Bright: from 2nd turn, make a Toughness check each turn. If failed, D3 automatic wounds with no save.
K'daai Destroyer: Terror, Large Target, Monster, Frenzy*
*Special version that adds +D3 rather than the usual 1.

Thats pretty much the rules in a nutshell
As for stats, for a general indication, with the exception of BS none are below 5. A fair few are higher

[MLP]

@Lord Dan I did a summary of all the Legion of Azgorh units here if you want a look

[Da Crusha]

the LoA list is very much accepted in my area, California USA. Ive been running chaos dwarfs for years at the tournament scene with ravening hordes and never had a problem with acceptance of my army and I run pre-big hat chaos dwarfs. they are marauder range models and were distributed by citadel I believe. they look like mini chaos warriors. check out the later pages in my blog if you guys want, they are all pretty much 20+ years old except my characters, those are mostly non gw models that were made much more recently. I starting buying them all about,... I dunno 5 years ago.

[Lord Dan]

Thanks guys, that's exactly what I needed. So did they change the rules on it? I seem to recall something about -1 to wound, which would have been ridiculous.

[The bearded one]

Thanks guys, that's exactly what I needed. So did they change the rules on it? I seem to recall something about -1 to wound, which would have been ridiculous.

That has been FAQ'ed a few days ago to be 'reroll succesfull wounds', except for magical attacks, those don't need to reroll.

Edit: Post #5000!!!

[Disposable Hero]

Grats, TBO!

I have a Great Host, and from the CD list I use some Infernal Guard, a wizard and a magma cannon.
For the Guard I use evil dwarfs from Confrontation.

It makes for a great list, together with some beasts adn WoC. Probably the most fun games of Fantasy I ever had.

[The bearded one]

I happened to see a chaos dwarf army in a tournament last month when I was using my finished lizardmen; I just added (30'ish) pictures to my lizardmen painting log of the tournament and made a lot of pictures of armies I saw there, including the chaos dwarfs.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...s/DSC01993.jpg

[TsukeFox]

I happened to see a chaos dwarf army in a tournament last month when I was using my finished lizardmen; I just added (30'ish) pictures to my lizardmen painting log of the tournament and made a lot of pictures of armies I saw there, including the chaos dwarfs.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...s/DSC01993.jpg

Nice base work-dude really needs to update the bases on the Bull Centaurs though.
Cool to see a Lamasu on the board