Dark elf vs High elf : Professional vs Citizen Levy

[Beastlord]

Not sure if this should be in this section as its kindof a fluff/rules crossover, but its annoyed me for a long while.
My gripe is this:
Dark elves rely on professional soldiers for their armies. Hence one can assume that the DE soldiery, being professional and all, spend their entire (long) lives either training or actually fighting battles. You'd think they'd be a bit good at it.
High elves, on the other hand, rely on a citizen levy. Their core troops are not proffesional and when not at war presumably spend most of their time engaged in making a living in a normal job, occasionally training. They then get less experiance of fighting than DEs.
So WHY did GW decide that it made sense that as a citizen levy the HE troops would somehow be better than the DEs? I just don't get it - they can fight in three ranks and ASF because they AREN'T professional? Because they DON'T spend their entire lives fighting. Riiight......

NB. This rant is mostly based on my experience of playing 6th ed DE's against 6th ed HE's. I have the latest DE book but not the HE one (I don't think) so my salient points may be somewhat stale.....

Any ideas?

[yabbadabba]

Being able to fight in three ranks would not be a skill brought on by years of experience, that would be consistently beating your opponent and not running off as soon as a Hydra appears. It would be taught to the Levy.

[The bearded one]

Malekith too had a low opinion of the high elf army of bakers and blacksmiths, and they fared badly at first but in the end they drove the druchii back into the sea. The experienced, professional soldier does not necessarily fight in a more disciplined formation or manner, which is necessary to pull off any kind of 'phalanx' formation.

[Craze_b0i]

Do DE spearmen get any more fighting experience though? All they ever seem to do is attack HE.

[Athelassan]

They'll fight Chaos on the northern border, and some of the other various wandering peoples of Naggaroth. I think there are Hung there; there's been mentions of greenskins too, not to mention the settlers from Skeggi/Swamp Town and the Undead of the Vampire Coast, and Lizardmen if they range sufficiently far south (which they did during the SoC). That's in addition to the land war with the High Elves at Arnheim and any raids the corsairs carry out overseas.

[theunwantedbeing]

The Citizen levy that take part in a warhammer battle are basically professional soldiers, as they are doing the "professional soldier" bit of the citizen levy...rather than the citizen bit where they stay at home and don't go to war.

It doesn't mean they can justify SoA or fight in an extra rank due to fluff reasons of course, the rules are just rules to make the game work and it worked for them in 7th edition and they just haven't been given a new book to put them in 8th edition yet (neither have the dark elves for that matter).

[Artein]

They'll fight Chaos on the northern border, and some of the other various wandering peoples of Naggaroth. I think there are Hung there; there's been mentions of greenskins too, not to mention the settlers from Skeggi/Swamp Town and the Undead of the Vampire Coast, and Lizardmen if they range sufficiently far south (which they did during the SoC). That's in addition to the land war with the High Elves at Arnheim and any raids the corsairs carry out overseas.

Also Beastmen and numerous monsters of Naggaroth.
Probably also Skaven.

[kramplarv]

it is quite easy to train civilians to use a phalanx formation to efficiency. I could train any warseers in a matter of 3 months to be tough as nails spearmen/pikemen.

ontopic: I believe that HE gets more fighting experience per individual solder since the mortality of the DE society probably is high. As soon as any individual dark elf grows powerful
a lot of others plots his downfall. If this is the case in the noble part of the society, why would it not be the same in the regular army lads. Also, since the DE fights so much the life expectancy of a soldier
is lower than their High counterparts.

Add the fact that DE generals gladly sacrifice their own men for their own goals.

All in all. I see no reason for DE society to be even close HE in warfare experience. Neither on individual or strategic levels.

[sulla]

So WHY did GW decide that it made sense that as a citizen levy the HE troops would somehow be better than the DEs? I just don't get it - they can fight in three ranks and ASF because they AREN'T professional? Because they DON'T spend their entire lives fighting. Riiight......

NB. This rant is mostly based on my experience of playing 6th ed DE's against 6th ed HE's. I have the latest DE book but not the HE one (I don't think) so my salient points may be somewhat stale.....

Any ideas?

Try to seperate out the gameplay from the fluff.

Fluffwise, neither side is significantly better than the other. Both are well equipped spearmen in full body armour with superior training and discipline.

Gameplay-wise, both sides benefit from rules which were added in 7th edition to make infantry more feasible in a cavalry and skirmisher biased game. Neither ASF or hatred is really justified by either army's fluff. HE's 'fight in extra ranks' is not justified by the length of their weapons. For all we know, both sides may lose those rules in their 8th ed armybooks.

[Arnizipal]

I don't think the Dark Elves have a professional army either. Like the High Elves, every Dark Elf citizen is trained a soldier, next to their "normal" occupation.
It seems the Dark Elf soldiers are just called on more often. I seem to recall the service in the High Elf militia also being limited in time (although I may be confusing that with Dwarf tunnel fighters).

[Druchii Monkey]

I find DE spears and HE spears to be fairly evenly matched - facing off two units of 160 pts or so both with full-command.

ASF for the High Elves balances out against the cheaper points cost of DE spears and Eternal Hatred. From a fluff point of view i like this, the higher points value for the High Elf spears in a way symbolises the preciousness of Elven life but to the Dark Elves this is turned on it's head - they're not so precious and they can pull together a larger muster of troops and in that sense are more martial.

As a DE general i truly feel i can raise great armies of spearmen and send them out as fodder. I think this fits with the fluff.

I played a game against HE with my DE last night. Awesome game. A draw in the end. My spears got wiped out but that was the point. I can complain about how HE always dominate the magic phase or that they have ASF but there is a great dynamic between the two armies from a rules and a fluff point of view which means even with no recorded victories against HE in the last year or so they are still my favourite army to play against.

I don't think the Dark Elves have a professional army either. Like the High Elves, every Dark Elf citizen is trained a soldier, next to their "normal" occupation.
It seems the Dark Elf soldiers are just called on more often. I seem to recall the service in the High Elf militia also being limited in time (although I may be confusing that with Dwarf tunnel fighters).

Yes, but with the endless raiding of corsairs, the infighting between different Dark Elf factions, the ambushing/intrigue, city watch that require bribes or violence, a whole city dedicated to Khaine and his murderous intent, a whole group thrown into the wilderness dues to internal intrigues in their city (the Shades) the entire society is continuously fighting with itself, and their militaristic traditions from Nagarythe and the Elven colonies live on.

[Arnizipal]

If we believe GW's über evil Dark Elf trope, then fact that they're constantly plotting each other's downfall would make Dark Elves far worse warriors actually.
If you can't trust the guy/gall next to you how are you going to form a decent spear wall or receive a charge as a unit?

Also, Corsairs are professional pirates (buccaneers?) I think. They're not militia.

[Craze_b0i]

Interesting topic this one, I need to go and read the DE armybook I think - I read it once some time ago but most of it is now hazy in my mind.

[Druchii Monkey]

If we believe GW's über evil Dark Elf trope, then fact that they're constantly plotting each other's downfall would make Dark Elves far worse warriors actually.

In some senses yes, and for me this explains why with the Dark Elves being more martial, they lose the ASF and some of the organisation of the High Elves in their rank and file. They are affected by bickering, in-fighting and a lack of trust, but to a degree rendered more capable by their Hatred - "With hate all things are possible." according to the Malus Darkblade books.

If you can't trust the guy/gall next to you how are you going to form a decent spear wall or receive a charge as a unit?

This works in both directions. Trust is not necessary when they have fear, hate, and ambition. A vicious superior officer in the ranks of the spears, or a lord who will happily feed any coward to his Cold One does instill a certain discipline.

Also, you have to remember the military traditions of Nagarythe, one of the most militaristic regions of Ulthuan where the Dark Elves come from. Just because their spearmen aren't quite as sharp as their High Elf cousins, don't underestimate the elite of the Black Guard, or the fury of Khaine in the Executioners.

Also, Corsairs are professional pirates (buccaneers?) I think. They're not militia.

Yes but as we know from the Malus books young Dark Elf nobles are often sent on a raid with Corsairs as a rite of passage. The pirate ships that go to plunder all over the known world include corsairs, nobles, warriors, and plenty of other things, not to mention the dreaded Black Arks. When these things come back into port if they ever do there is turnover, new corsairs are hired, some may leave the pirating life and join the army, or city guard. We are talking about a nation geared up for war, piracy, and just general naughtiness. In this sort of society the essential value in being damn good at fighting is very high. I guess you could argue their warriors should be better than they are but at the basic warrior level i'd argue their excellent skills are offset by their "issues". I like it that way.

Also can recommend Gav Thorpe's blog for some of the background:
http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.c...he-background/

I particularly like this bit as it describes some interesting observations by Gav Thorpe on DE and HE.

"I really wouldn’t like to put a number on the population levels – from a writer’s point of view it has always been that there are enough for whatever purposes the story needs. It stands to reason that the Druchii numbers had to expand somehow, they started off as a single kingdom and are now a nation unto themselves. Having left behind a lot of the traditions and taboos of Elven society I would assume that there’s more breeding going on in Naggaroth than Ulthuan. Also, the Druchii are a it more dynamic in culture, outgoing (if only to go out on raids!) whereas the Asur have become insular, drawing on a dwindling genestock and bound up by generations of familial ties and traditions."

[Arnizipal]

Thanks for that link. A real good read

[Druchii Monkey]

Thanks for that link. A real good read

Cool, glad you liked it. Gav Thorpe's blog is a really good read on Dark Elves and other stuff, his recent posts on Elf Preservation are interesting too - but not the High Elves of course.

[Arnizipal]

A bit sad to read that GW doesn't care about consistancy and also that this is a deliberate choice

[yabbadabba]

A bit sad to read that GW doesn't care about consistancy and also that this is a deliberate choice

Sorry, what do you mean by that mate?

[Arnizipal]

It's something Gav said on his blog:

The majority of Black Library publications add depth rather than breadth to the Warhammer universes. That is, they focus upon a small part of the world and burrow into more detail, adding defined characters and events to the images as laid out by the rulebooks and supplements. In this regard, it is up to the individual authors and editors to continue the consistency established by the setting, but any notion of particular detail being ‘correct’ or incorporated is erroneous. Just as every person who collects an army, paints a model or plays a game creates their very own slice of the Warhammer world or 40K universe – like an infinite array of the multiverse with one universe consistent for every player – each author also has their own sandpit to play in. This is where fans often get very hung up on the idea of canon, and the fact that there isn’t any. No one exploration of this depth is definitive nor prescriptive to future realisations of the image, just as the fact that Karl Franz was killed by an Orc bolt thrower in your last game doesn’t mean players can’t use them in subsequent battles…

[yabbadabba]

Cheers fella, I actually consider that a strength rather than a weakness. GWs main games have always been about players creating their own versions of the games and background. I think canon in GWs case is overly harmful. Other than a light overarching support structure its not needed.