Dark elf vs High elf : Professional vs Citizen Levy

[Craze_b0i]

Thanks Druchii Monkey, a great read - interesting stuff. I like how Gav engages with the fans like that.

I particularly like this bit as it describes some interesting observations by Gav Thorpe on DE and HE.

"I really wouldn’t like to put a number on the population levels – from a writer’s point of view it has always been that there are enough for whatever purposes the story needs. It stands to reason that the Druchii numbers had to expand somehow, they started off as a single kingdom and are now a nation unto themselves. Having left behind a lot of the traditions and taboos of Elven society I would assume that there’s more breeding going on in Naggaroth than Ulthuan. Also, the Druchii are a it more dynamic in culture, outgoing (if only to go out on raids!) whereas the Asur have become insular, drawing on a dwindling genestock and bound up by generations of familial ties and traditions."

This theory of DE birth rates is actually one of the few bits I disagreed with. Simply have more sex outside marriage wouldn't necessarily lead to more children as there would be no gain to the individual female in keeping all these bastard offspring or letting them be born - unless it was to sell them as slaves. As for the comment on raiding the rest of the world to widen their genestock surely that can only lead to half-elf children.

Gav said earlier in the Q&A that Dark Elf Society 'works' for the sake/context of the setting, but if you try and analyse the specific mechanics of it too much then it just falls apart. I think population numbers is a good example of that.

[Arnizipal]

Cheers fella, I actually consider that a strength rather than a weakness. GWs main games have always been about players creating their own versions of the games and background. I think canon in GWs case is overly harmful. Other than a light overarching support structure its not needed.

It's one thing if games make their own version of the world, but if the company who created the wold starts having different versions as well things get incredibly confusing.

Gav said earlier in the Q&A that Dark Elf Society 'works' for the sake/context of the setting, but if you try and analyse the specific mechanics of it too much then it just falls apart. I think population numbers is a good example of that.

I consider that a downside really.
It's sloppy design. They could have made the Dark Elves less bloodmad psychos and more decadent super fascists and their image would be preserved while their society would make more sense.

[yabbadabba]

It's one thing if games maek their own version of the world, but if the company who created the wold starts having different versions as well things get incredibly confusing.

We'll have to agree to disagree ;-)

[Beastlord]

It's one thing if games make their own version of the world, but if the company who created the wold starts having different versions as well things get incredibly confusing.

I disagree really - its like history - you get multiple accounts and variants of the same event. News doesn't travel well in a medieval society and facts are not necessarily recorded accurately. In a way I think this draws you into the world more than if there was a strict canon... I like it because it means you can disregard fluff you don't like.
With regards elvish reproduction, I would imagine that HE have lots of rituals and tradition surrounding sex, and that without this the DE are able to produce more offspring. And I dont see why illegitimate children would be pointless? There is a story in the 6th ed book about a DE whos wife is killed by witch elves and his baby taken to the temple. It's made clear in that story that he cares for them and that families do exist in the conventional sense.

[Craze_b0i]

I would imagine that HE have lots of rituals and tradition surrounding sex, and that without this the DE are able to produce more

Interesting idea but I don't really find it likely. If HE couldn't be bothered to have sex anymore because you had to do a long boring ritual before you started then this would have been identified in the fluff as the cause of their decline. Instead the text merely states they were producing fewer children, which hints at low fertility rates.

And I dont see why illegitimate children would be pointless? There is a story in the 6th ed book about a DE whos wife is killed by witch elves and his baby taken to the temple. It's made clear in that story that he cares for them and that families do exist in the conventional sense.

Why does he care for them though, is it because he loves them or is it because he regards them as useful to support himself? Not arguing with you, just curious.

[Beastlord]

No real basis for it - I just kindof imagined that High Elves would be like that - not so much that they can't be arsed, but that there might be a lot of social pressure about who can do it with who...

As for the DE family thing, I don't have the book on me so only have my recolection of the story to go on but I got the impression that he loved them. I don't really buy into the idea that the DEs evil nature extends to being incapable of some kind of love for those close to them, although I imagine this is controversial.

[Athelassan]

GW are traditionally very cagey about anything to do with sex. Occasionally they go crazy with it, and we get something like the Daemonettes, but usually they prefer to pretend that there's none of that sort of thing going on. I have heard that this is the reason Karl Franz has never been given an officially acknowledged wife or child. BLP seem to have a bit of leeway, so the novels and WFRP are less prudish. But I can't imagine we'll ever get any information about the sex lives of any of the Warhammer factions in an army book, though.

[Arnizipal]

I disagree really - its like history - you get multiple accounts and variants of the same event. News doesn't travel well in a medieval society and facts are not necessarily recorded accurately. In a way I think this draws you into the world more than if there was a strict canon... I like it because it means you can disregard fluff you don't like.

The thing is, most BL stories are told from a first person perspective.

If the story would be:
"It is said that when the raiding fleet returned, the Dark Elf festivities lasted for a full week and the streets ran red with the blood of sacrificed slaves."
it would leave open speculation on the trustworthyness of the source.

However, most BL stories outright state the facts:
"Malus walked through the city as the festivities over the return of the raiding fleet were in full swing. The blood of thousands of sacrifices had spilled from the temples out into the street and painted the cobbles a deep crimson. The screams of the dead and dying were like music to his ears."

How am I supposed to know what's recorded accurately and what isn't?

[yabbadabba]

How am I supposed to know what's recorded accurately and what isn't?

Its a made up world, not an academic source. Accuracy is not really an issue.

[Arnizipal]

Its a made up world, not an academic source. Accuracy is not really an issue.

Excuse me for wanting my game world to be coherent

[yabbadabba]

Excuse me for wanting my game world to be coherent

Then its your gaming world, the emphasis is on you, not GWs authors.

"Canon" is one of the great dangers of any fiction based environment like this.

[Craze_b0i]

GW are traditionally very cagey about anything to do with sex. Occasionally they go crazy with it, and we get something like the Daemonettes, but usually they prefer to pretend that there's none of that sort of thing going on. I have heard that this is the reason Karl Franz has never been given an officially acknowledged wife or child. BLP seem to have a bit of leeway, so the novels and WFRP are less prudish. But I can't imagine we'll ever get any information about the sex lives of any of the Warhammer factions in an army book, though.

I think some of the older books like Genevieve were a lot more open about that sort of thing. I recently read Reiksguard and was struck by just how sexless it actually was. I am not saying they need to provide us with the actual sex scenes, but at least acknowldge that some of it goes on or allow the characters some kind of love-interest.

Same goes for many of the special characters in the army books, the biography is pretty much about their fighting career and that's it. Even Napoleon had his Josephine.

edit: Karl Franz is apparently married with kids http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Luitpold

[yabbadabba]

Sex doesn't sell for Mums mate.

[Athelassan]

Luitpold was mentioned in the Genevieve novels but nowhere else. In The Enemy Within his heir was somebody else (his nephew, Wolfgang Holswig-Abenauer). Given that there are other issues with the Genevieve novels (although I'd be happy to see them instated as fully canonical, with a couple of fiddles with dates) it's unlikely that Luitpold is still considered to be knocking around.

Although as far as I'm concerned, he is.

Karl-Franz's wife was never named, though, which is odd. You'd have thought her identity would be pretty important, given the influence that would accrue to her family. A number of senior posts in Reikland are filled by KF's cousins and so on, why not his in-laws?

Back on topic, I'm inclined to agree with Arnizipal. Some depth, room for discussion or general vaguery is to be welcomed. When two ostensibly reliable, word-of-god sources explicitly contradict each other, that's just annoying.

[yabbadabba]

word-of-god sources explicitly contradict each other

It happens all the time in religion, and that's supposed to be divinely inspired. What hope do mere mortals have? There isn't even a canon in historical circles, and that's academic. So why would a made up universe need anything like as much rigorous scrutiny. Surprising, yes. Enough to get your hackles up .... no.

[Craze_b0i]

Luitpold was mentioned in the Genevieve novels but nowhere else. In The Enemy Within his heir was somebody else (his nephew, Wolfgang Holswig-Abenauer). Given that there are other issues with the Genevieve novels (although I'd be happy to see them instated as fully canonical, with a couple of fiddles with dates) it's unlikely that Luitpold is still considered to be knocking around.

Although as far as I'm concerned, he is.

Karl-Franz's wife was never named, though, which is odd. You'd have thought her identity would be pretty important, given the influence that would accrue to her family. A number of senior posts in Reikland are filled by KF's cousins and so on, why not his in-laws?

Skavenslayer also refers to Karl Franz brother-in-law, so by extention that too says KF has a wife (at least he does according to that particular source). But yes its odd no writer has ever been allowed to name her.

Back on topic, I'm inclined to agree with Arnizipal. Some depth, room for discussion or general vaguery is to be welcomed. When two ostensibly reliable, word-of-god sources explicitly contradict each other, that's just annoying.

I couldn't agree more.

[Beastlord]

How am I supposed to know what's recorded accurately and what isn't?

That was kindof my point - you can't

Anyone have any theorys on the DE family issue? Can DEs feel love for others of their race? I would say yes, as I don't think a sophisticated and advanced society could really survive without it. I appreciate this goes against the "Dark Elves are the epitome of evil" approach, but I think they have to care for someone... I'm pretty sure Morathi loves Malekith, be it in a strange and twisted way....
Ideas?

[Craze_b0i]

Sex doesn't sell for Mums mate.

How many mums do you think sit and read Warhammer Armies books before letting their kids buy them? As far as mums are concerned its just a game of toy soldiers. If ever mums did read warhammer fluff then there are dozens of worse things in there already than the fact Karl Franz may have a wife and find her attractive. Like I said they don't need to put in actual sex description just acknowledge that some of the characters may occasionally have a love interest.

[yabbadabba]

How many mums do you think sit and read Warhammer Armies books before letting their kids buy them? As far as mums are concerned its just a game of toy soldiers. If ever mums did read warhammer fluff then there are dozens of worse things in there already than the fact Karl Franz may have a wife and find her attractive. Like I said they don't need to put in actual sex description just acknowledge that some of the characters may occasionally have a love interest.

Actually, in my experience, the two things that mums did not like more than anything else was Witch Elves and Daemonettes. Violence they were far less concerned with. Daemons they were uncomfortable with. A flash of boob was too offensive.

That is just one of the more simple angles on this situation. We have to accept that GW is rather conservative in its views, it used to be rather sexist and maybe the authors just don't want to write about wives and girlfriends. The list of additional reasons goes on, but I can tell you mums are happy with little johnny stabbing someone with a spear but there is no sex.

[Druchii Monkey]

This theory of DE birth rates is actually one of the few bits I disagreed with. Simply have more sex outside marriage wouldn't necessarily lead to more children as there would be no gain to the individual female in keeping all these bastard offspring or letting them be born - unless it was to sell them as slaves. As for the comment on raiding the rest of the world to widen their genestock surely that can only lead to half-elf children.

Gav said earlier in the Q&A that Dark Elf Society 'works' for the sake/context of the setting, but if you try and analyse the specific mechanics of it too much then it just falls apart. I think population numbers is a good example of that.

I disagree. There is an immediate gain to a Dark Elf in having more than one child for example. That way there is competition in the queue to kill him and succeed. There is a rivalry that can be used to set each child against each other. The more children the better. The more pawns in the game the better.

Secondly, Dark Elves are more likely to have relations and children based on arrangements outside the traditional marriage. For example Malus Darkblade is the bastard son of Lurhan the Vaulkhar of Hag Graef, who has at least two other sons and and two daughters, and whose fathering of Malus was due to his fascination with a relationship with a Sorceress called Eldire.

Dark Elves are not traditional by any means and their gene pool is likely to be wider - dark elves from the colonies, high elves captured on raids. Also they are ruled by tyrants who would not be adverse to forced population expansion policies.

How am I supposed to know what's recorded accurately and what isn't?

There is a legal philosopher called HLA Hart who describes rules as having a core of certainty but a penumbra of doubt. I doubt that Gav Thorpe would get away with a book that described the Dark Elves as the best buddies of the High Elves. He will have certain bounds within which he can travel. From a Slaanesh point of view i think he would find it difficult to describe Slaanesh as completely compatible with the tenants of Khaine and that Malekith was completely cool with the whole Slaaneshi thing. I don't think the absence of "canon" means the absence of guidelines or expected aspects for the Druchii. It would be interesting to know what the exact BL/GW guidelines are or whether reviewers/editors alone keep the world that has been created in check. The Warhammer world does hang together for me fairly well, and that's enough.