Chaos Daemons (40k) Revision

[Mchagen]

Here's a revision I've been working on for 40k Chaos Daemons houserules. Comments/suggestions appreciated. Thanks.



Here's the updated special rules section for 1.9;

Daemon- Grants Eternal Warrior, Fearless, Daemonic Assault

Daemonic Assault – Chaos Daemon units are not deployed normally. Instead, each unit is deployed through a Warp Rift at the beginning of their first turn and makes a standard move immediately, measured from an edge of a Rift template. Units not deployed first turn through a Warp Rift must arrive via deep strike using standard reserve rolls.

Warp Rift– A Daemon army always starts with a number of Warp Rifts based on the army point total. If the army is up to 1000 points, it starts with one rift, 1001-2000 points the army starts with two rifts, etc. Before deployment, place a Warp Rift anywhere within 12” of the owning players’ board edge [use a 5” diameter piece or template to represent the rift]. Warp Rifts must be placed at least 6” apart. After all rifts have been placed, scatter each one D6”. If the rift lands in impassible terrain, move it the minimum distance, 1” away from the terrain. One additional Warp Rift can be purchased at the cost of 40 points. A Warp Rift counts as impassible terrain, but does not block los.

Heralds– Heralds count as unit upgrades and do not take up a slot on the force organization chart unless they are given a chariot. Chariot mounted Heralds count as an elites choice. Up to two Herald chariots can be taken per Elite slot. The following units may take a Herald (must be same type as the unit [Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, Tzeentch]); Bloodletters, Plaguebearers, Daemonettes, Horrors, Bloodcrushers, Plague Toads, Flamers, and Seekers. Max one Herald per unit.

[Son of Sanguinius]

I'm going to give it a more thorough read, but I'll give you my initial impressions to help start the discussion. Please note that my comments are coming from an assumption that you want something competitive and consistent with current codicies.

Pros
- I like that you're making the Greater Demons a little more substantial. It's more fun in game and thematically.
- I like that you're incorporating an Undivided element beyond Furies.

Cons
- I don't like the Demonic Assault rule. I don't like it in the official codex and I don't like it in yours. I recommend allowing any and all Demonic units to arrive via deep strike regardless of mission rules, similar to terminators.
- Rivalry and Favor are appreciated for their honoring of old background, but GW is leaving those elements behind on the tabletop. There is no justification for specifically precluding players from taking Khorne and Tzeentch models side by side anymore, nor for forcing players to use specifically sized units.
- The herald system is unnecessarily complicated. 0-2 works really well, and you could always allow more in an Elites spot or something.
- You have too many gifts. Gifts, because they each require their own special rules, quickly weigh down unit entries and units themselves. It's not like most wargear, which can either be summed up with a chart or have easy and consistent reference in the rulebook.

[Mchagen]

I don't follow your recommendation for changing the D.Assault rule. Are you suggesting that all units in the army roll for reserves (deep striking) starting turn 2, on a 4+? Because that's how terminator deepstrike works. Unless you mean deathwing assault, which is the same as drop pod assault, which is the same as what's in this revised codex.

The only other option is if you get the chance to deep strike units on a 4+ starting on turn 1. That is actually weaker because at least with the revised option, you get to choose exactly which units arrive. With random rolls, you may get more than 50% showing up, but it probably won't be what you want. I fail to see why you think that would be better.

Whenever I post revisions and add 'rivalry' there are always people who don't like it and there are those that do. It's probably a 50/50 split. But the bottom line for why they didn't add it in the current codex is likely due to there being so few units in the codex overall. That's not a problem with this revision and I think it points to the complete lack of effort on GW's part to come up with a handful of new units that the book needed when it split from Chaos Marines. I don't think the rivalry rule is as harsh as you play it out to be. You also mention Khorne and Tzeentch, which is not one of the original 'main' rivalries, nor is it in this revision. Khorne dislikes Tzeentch, but his rivalry is Slaanesh.

This only comes up if a Greater Daemon is taken, and partially represents the increased power those units have received. If you take one, you have a slight disadvantage, otherwise, if you take a Prince, you can take whatever you want. It's there to give a competitive edge to a Prince which I feel should be an HQ slot and not Heavy.

The herald system is fairly basic; take three nurgle troops, get up to three nurgle Heralds. Maybe I didn't word it very well. I don't like them in Elites because that section is already heavily stacked. A 0-2 option seems more strange to me because I feel the heralds should be tied into the troops that are taken. Again, this is partially a problem that stems from the current codex and GW's lack of coming up with new units. They shift the Prince to Heavy because they have only one choice (a modified defiler--the soulgrinder), then come up with heralds which are glorified champions to fill in as a cheap alternative to GD's. I'd put it simply as a unit upgrade, but that complicates matters when chariots are involved.

Which units have too many gifts? I agree with this to a certain extent and I wanted to tone some of the units' rules a bit. Though, examples of what to remove would help.

[Haravikk]

I'd have to give a more in depth read of the rest, but personally I really like the revised daemonic assault rule, especially combined with the Warp Rifts which are just plain cool, and actually allow the deployment zone to mean something.
I also personally like the implementation of rivals as it doesn't make much sense for a greater daemon to lead forces they'd be just as likely to turn on.

I'm not so sure about the favoured unit rule. What if it was something more along the lines of, if your army is led by a greater daemon, then a unit of the appropriate type may take an icon for free, but must deploy at the same time as the greater daemon (within 6"), so it's almost like it becomes an honour guard of sorts.
For heralds; would it be easier to just have them count as a unit upgrade for one unit of the appropriate type? Since they don't take up HQ slots anyway then I think in game terms it works in the same way, suppose it depends what 6th edition's going to do.

Anyway, some fun and much needed rules changes, I haven't had a chance to compare the army list changes, so I won't comment on those for now.

[Mchagen]

It's probably a better idea to count them as unit upgrades, similar to broodlords. Though, chariots wouldn't work the same way. There would have to be a separate rule to make them work.

The favored rule will probably end up getting dropped if enough people dislike it.

[Son of Sanguinius]

I don't follow your recommendation for changing the D.Assault rule. Are you suggesting that all units in the army roll for reserves (deep striking) starting turn 2, on a 4+? Because that's how terminator deepstrike works. Unless you mean deathwing assault, which is the same as drop pod assault, which is the same as what's in this revised codex.

The only other option is if you get the chance to deep strike units on a 4+ starting on turn 1. That is actually weaker because at least with the revised option, you get to choose exactly which units arrive. With random rolls, you may get more than 50% showing up, but it probably won't be what you want. I fail to see why you think that would be better.

No special reserves changes. Just deploy like everyone else, except that all demons have a special rule saying "this unit may be held in reserve to start the game, regardless of the mission rules. If the unit is held in reserve, deploy it using the deep strike special rules." Exactly like Terminators. It's not mandatory by any stretch, but it's a great tool to have. And then you can have a special character or something that allows them to start deploying a turn early, if you want.

I raise it only because I have never been a fan of the Chaos Demon deployment system. It can be a big time advantage in some circumstances, but in my experience, it's too inconsistent to make the army truly competitive. That said, your version seems to improve consistency.

Whenever I post revisions and add 'rivalry' there are always people who don't like it and there are those that do. It's probably a 50/50 split. But the bottom line for why they didn't add it in the current codex is likely due to there being so few units in the codex overall. That's not a problem with this revision and I think it points to the complete lack of effort on GW's part to come up with a handful of new units that the book needed when it split from Chaos Marines. I don't think the rivalry rule is as harsh as you play it out to be. You also mention Khorne and Tzeentch, which is not one of the original 'main' rivalries, nor is it in this revision. Khorne dislikes Tzeentch, but his rivalry is Slaanesh.

The Tzeentch part was a typo. Apologies. I agree that there is a serious lack of units in some areas, but I also think that some thematic elements should be left to the player to enforce. If one player wants to use an army that detests Slaanesh, they can take an army without any Slaaneshi units. If another wants to take an army where a Bloodthirster and a Keeper of Secrets are working toward a mutual goal, I think that should be allowed.

But I think the main point here is consistency with the newer background. If you intend to disregard that (which is not only perfectly acceptable but in some facepalm situations advisable) then go for it and ignore my point here.

This only comes up if a Greater Daemon is taken, and partially represents the increased power those units have received. If you take one, you have a slight disadvantage, otherwise, if you take a Prince, you can take whatever you want. It's there to give a competitive edge to a Prince which I feel should be an HQ slot and not Heavy.

Interesting mitigating factor. My initial reaction is that the Prince should, either through cost or flexibility, be able to stand on his own legs, but if this works to make him viable, then more power to you.

The herald system is fairly basic; take three nurgle troops, get up to three nurgle Heralds. Maybe I didn't word it very well. I don't like them in Elites because that section is already heavily stacked. A 0-2 option seems more strange to me because I feel the heralds should be tied into the troops that are taken. Again, this is partially a problem that stems from the current codex and GW's lack of coming up with new units. They shift the Prince to Heavy because they have only one choice (a modified defiler--the soulgrinder), then come up with heralds which are glorified champions to fill in as a cheap alternative to GD's. I'd put it simply as a unit upgrade, but that complicates matters when chariots are involved.

I'd say make them a unit upgrade and make the chariots with heralds in them a separate Elites or Heavy Support choice.

Which units have too many gifts? I agree with this to a certain extent and I wanted to tone some of the units' rules a bit. Though, examples of what to remove would help.

I'll look into it more.



I'm also including four god-specific heavy support concepts that I've been using for my own demon codex. Feel free to pillage or ignore these ideas as you will. The basic theme is that the Forge of Souls is constructing bigger and meaner constructs all the time, stuff that can go toe to toe with a Soulgrinder.


Furyborn Annhilator
- Basically a monstrous juggernaut that runs over everything in its path and is difficult to control or kill.

Infernal Wyrm
- A flying serpentine demonic cyborg that has a head similar to a long-snouted chinese dragon and a body like the giant beasts in The Avengers.

Plague Hulk
- From Forgeworld, with a focus on short range putresence.

Soporific Arachnae
- An enormous spider/scorpion/demon cyborg that captures enemy models. Think the Brass Scorpion from Forgeworld crossed with a Talos Pain Engine.

[Mchagen]

No special reserves changes. Just deploy like everyone else, except that all demons have a special rule saying "this unit may be held in reserve to start the game, regardless of the mission rules. If the unit is held in reserve, deploy it using the deep strike special rules." Exactly like Terminators. It's not mandatory by any stretch, but it's a great tool to have. And then you can have a special character or something that allows them to start deploying a turn early, if you want.

I raise it only because I have never been a fan of the Chaos Demon deployment system. It can be a big time advantage in some circumstances, but in my experience, it's too inconsistent to make the army truly competitive. That said, your version seems to improve consistency.

I'll have to test it out, see how it plays. The goal with Warp Rifts was to incorporate the element of standard deployment, but with a slight twist to add some entertainment. It's a good suggestion though.

The Tzeentch part was a typo. Apologies. I agree that there is a serious lack of units in some areas, but I also think that some thematic elements should be left to the player to enforce. If one player wants to use an army that detests Slaanesh, they can take an army without any Slaaneshi units. If another wants to take an army where a Bloodthirster and a Keeper of Secrets are working toward a mutual goal, I think that should be allowed.

But I think the main point here is consistency with the newer background. If you intend to disregard that (which is not only perfectly acceptable but in some facepalm situations advisable) then go for it and ignore my point here.

You make a good point here. I'll likely take out favored/rivalry as they seem to create unnessessary complications.

Interesting mitigating factor. My initial reaction is that the Prince should, either through cost or flexibility, be able to stand on his own legs, but if this works to make him viable, then more power to you.

One of the comments I received when I posted a list similar to this one last year is that the Prince should be a better 'supporting' character than the GDs. That would make him more competitive in the slot. I think with the few rules added in the revision he has this potential, which I added after I implemented the rivalry rule. So it probably doesn't need to be there to weaken the choice of a GD over a Prince and why I'll end up removing it.

I'd say make them a unit upgrade and make the chariots with heralds in them a separate Elites or Heavy Support choice.

Good suggestion, I'll work this into the next version.

I'm also including four god-specific heavy support concepts that I've been using for my own demon codex. Feel free to pillage or ignore these ideas as you will. The basic theme is that the Forge of Souls is constructing bigger and meaner constructs all the time, stuff that can go toe to toe with a Soulgrinder.


Furyborn Annhilator
- Basically a monstrous juggernaut that runs over everything in its path and is difficult to control or kill.

Infernal Wyrm
- A flying serpentine demonic cyborg that has a head similar to a long-snouted chinese dragon and a body like the giant beasts in The Avengers.

Plague Hulk
- From Forgeworld, with a focus on short range putresence.

Soporific Arachnae
- An enormous spider/scorpion/demon cyborg that captures enemy models. Think the Brass Scorpion from Forgeworld crossed with a Talos Pain Engine.

Do you have a list posted somewhere? I'm curious to see what you've done with these.

[Son of Sanguinius]

Most of the ideas are still in my head, but here's a basic rundown.

Army Wide Changes
- army deploys as normal, but any and all units can be held in reserves and deployed like teleporting terminators
- demonic gifts that are essentially psychic powers become psychic powers, but demons are really good at using them
- invulnerable save cannot be used against psychic powers, witchblades, or force weapons unless specifically stated otherwise (with point reductions to compensate)
.....I understand this last point makes them absurdly weak to grey knights, but I would also make changes to nemesis weapons

HQ
- greater demons become more powerful, with small profile increases and some gifts as standard
- demon princes are HQ, with more gift options and buffs to profile
- greater demons and demon princes allow you to take the other as Heavy Support if you wish (I like the disdain theme in the Prince background)
- Heralds are unit commander choices like Exarchs, Nobs, or Broodlords. Expensive, but confer nice bonuses.

Elites
- Chariots ridden by Heralds are now their own unit

Troops
- General toning back of the troops to give the army more of a horde aspect, usually through toughness and point reductions.

Fast Attack
- Granting scout to many units to allow outflanking, allow teleportation surprises, and encourage rushing the opponent

Heavy Support
- Furyborn Annihilator: three-headed, monstrous juggernaut; very tough but hard to control
- Infernal Wyrm: flying, fire-spewing tzeentchian worm that affects psychic powers in its vicinity
- Plague Hulk: a soul grinder overcome by a great unclean one, with a lot of devastating short range firepower
- Soporific Arachnae: demonic cyborg arachnid that captures enemy models and slows surrounding units

[Haravikk]

- invulnerable save cannot be used against psychic powers, witchblades, or force weapons unless specifically stated otherwise (with point reductions to compensate)
.....I understand this last point makes them absurdly weak to grey knights, but I would also make changes to nemesis weapons

Not sure what exactly the rationale for this is? Daemons aren't meant to be entirely corporeal after all, so I don't see why psychic abilities should be any more effective against them? Plus Grey Knights can use the Banisher from the inquisitor war band to disrupt a daemon's invulnerable save (forcing them to re-roll it if within 6").


For deployment, I actually really like Warp Rifts as opposed to deploying normally, though I can see the merits of having the focus a bit more toward normal deployment. What if there was some kind of compromise? For example:
For every five hundred points you get one warp-rift, possibly reducing them to small templates.
Each warp rift must have between two and four squads assigned to it before the game.
Warp rifts are set up before deployment and scatter etc.
At the end of deployment, but before the game begins, all squads assigned to rifts are deployed in contact with the corresponding rift.
All other forces start in reserve.

I think this would give a pretty good balance of being able to deploy before the game, and it allows you to potentially start with your whole army on the table, depending how much stuff you've taken. So you could just leave two or three units in reserve for deep striking if you prefer.

Since you would be getting the rifts for free, you could then instead pay points to "upgrade" a rift such that you can place it outside your deployment zone, but it cannot be placed within say… 12" of an objective or anything else "mission critical" (depends upon the mission really).

[Mchagen]

Excellent idea. They could even be made more simple, but following that same theme. Any unit in the army may start on the table first turn--and must enter through a rift. All units that do not deploy via rift, may deep strike starting on turn 2 following standard reserve rules.

The only issue I see with this is, would they be 'deployed' first turn, or 'walk on' first turn through a rift. I'm thinking the latter because there could be deployment issues with multiple units having to start touching a template. If it's small, it would be even worse. Plus it gives the opponent the advantage of taking out grouped-up squads first turn.

Maybe a rift for every 1000 point bracket, so up to 1000 = 1, 1001-2000 = 2, etc. With current option to buy a few more.

Edit; I updated the first post with the revised special rules section.

Also, the chaos icon was intentionally left without a description because the current rule doesn't fit very well. Daemons 'summoning' daemons just seems strange to me. But here's a possible change that would be more feasible. Each icon allows the unit to reroll deepstrike rolls. Simple, easy fix. I removed the favored rule, so it wouldn't be redundant with that. Icons on multiple units would be more useful as they could always benefit from them.

[Son of Sanguinius]

Not sure what exactly the rationale for this is? Daemons aren't meant to be entirely corporeal after all, so I don't see why psychic abilities should be any more effective against them? Plus Grey Knights can use the Banisher from the inquisitor war band to disrupt a daemon's invulnerable save (forcing them to re-roll it if within 6").

There are numerous literary examples where psychic powers are stated to be the only reliable weapons against demons. Off the top of my head, Know No Fear was full of them, to the point where Roboute Guilleman

came to believe that perhaps the Council of Nikea had been engineered to deprive the Imperium of the best weapon against Chaos

[Haravikk]

Looks good! However, while it's more complex, I think that units should still be assigned to rifts before the other player(s) deploy, this is intended to avoid a Daemon player being able to take advantage of the other player's deployment by placing the army how they like as the Warp Rifts would give a lot more certainty than each unit Deep Striking individually current does.

To simplify the restriction, perhaps stipulate that you must choose which units are starting in reserve and which are entering through the rifts before the rifts are placed. Doesn't need to be declared, written down on the roster should do. This is to prevent the Daemon player seeing a weak flank and deciding to deploy as much as possible on that side to take advantage, or similar cases

[Mchagen]

I'll add that in.. the Daemon player must choose which units are entering via rift and which deep strike at the start of the deployment phase, before Rifts are placed.

[Mchagen]

If there's more feedback on the units, that would be great. Specifically, the troops in the current codex are severely lacking. Most players opt to take the bare minimal two troops choices and select plaguebearers solely for objective holding. I haven't made huge changes to the four core troops, but the goal is to make them all more usable--in terms of competitive potential and internal balance against each other.

________________________________________________
Bloodletters of Khorne ..........15 points each
WS BS .S .T .W .I .A Ld ..Sv
.5 .- .4 .4 .1 .4 .2 10 .5(I)

Infantry; Unit Size: 5-20
Options:
One Bloodletter unit may have Iron Hide (3+ save) for +10 points per model
One model may have an Instrument of Chaos for +5 points (+1 to combat resolution during draws)
One model may replace Hellblade for Bloodscourge for +15 points (+2 Strength, Power Weapon)
One model may have a Chaos Icon for +10 points (may reroll deep strike roll)
Special Rules:
Daemon
Furious Charge
Hellblade – Counts as a Power Weapon.
________________________________________________
Daemonettes of Slaanesh ..........13 points each
WS BS .S .T .W .I .A Ld ..Sv
.5 .- .3 .3 .1 .6 .3 10 .5(I)

Infantry; Unit Size: 5-20
Options:
One model may have an Instrument of Chaos for +5 points
One model may have Transfixing Gaze for +5 points
One model may have a Chaos Icon for +10 points (may reroll deep strike roll)
Special Rules:
Daemon
Fleet
Aura of Acquiescence – Assault and Defensive Grenades
Beguile – Any unit shooting at a target with Beguile must take a Ld test at -2 Ld, if failed they reduce their Ballistic Skill by 2 for the remainder of that shooting phase. A unit reduced to BS 0 may not fire that turn.
Rending
________________________________________________
Pink Horrors of Tzeentch ..........15 points each
WS BS .S .T .W .I .A Ld ..Sv
.2 .4 .3 .3 .1 .3 .1 10 .4(I)

Infantry; Unit Size: 5-20
Options:
One model may have an Instrument of Chaos for +5 points
One model may have Bolt of Tzeentch for +15 points
One model may have a Chaos Icon for +10 points (may reroll deep strike roll)
One model may be upgraded to the Changeling for +5 points, unique, as Horror and has Glamor of Tzeentch ability
Special Rules:
Daemon
Warpfire – 18” Range, S4, AP4, Assault 3
Glamor of Tzeentch – during the enemy shooting phase, one unit attempting to fire on the Changeling's unit must pass a Ld test. If failed they instead fire on target chosen by the Daemon player. The unit firing may choose not to shoot before rolling the Ld test and will not fire that turn.
________________________________________________
Plaquebearers of Nurgle ..........16 points each
WS BS .S .T .W .I .A Ld ..Sv
.3 .- .4 .5 .1 .2 .2 10 .5(I)

Infantry; Unit Size: 5-20
Options:
One model may have an Instrument of Chaos for +5 points
One model may have Noxious Touch for +5 points
One model may have a Chaos Icon for +10 points (may reroll deep strike roll)
Special Rules:
Daemon
Slow and Purposeful
Feel No Pain
Poison (4+)
________________________________________________