IG help against DE

[jjakaalbinoboy]

Hey folks, having trouble defeating my mates DE, they're fast and make it into shooting range T1/2, disembark an tear my guardsmen apart in CC. I've heard advice that I need more armour and Hydras?

[Denny]

I'm a dark eldar player who gets killed by guard on a semi-regular basis.

Hydras are nasty, but in general mech guard stand up well to Dark Eldar; we excel at killing big tough things (like landraiders) but if you spam the table with armour 12 we start to have problems. Most of your special heavy weapons should knock us out of the sky (autocannons are especially unpleasant) and lasguns kill our troops easily enough. Hellhounds are especially horrible; they wound on 2+, ignore most of our troops armour and feel no pain saves. Ouch!

It might help if you briefly outline what list you use, what list your opponent uses, and what tends to happen in your games.

[Str10_hurts]

Chimera's are the bane of DE...its true
Stock up on cheap (nearly worthless infantry) platoons with autocannon and grenade launcher and load up on chimera's.

DE ultimate strength is dealing with elite (expensive) units. Their weakness is dealing with cheap medium strength firepower.

[jjakaalbinoboy]

He can cross the table into melee in one or maybe if im lucky two turns, a) that doesnt give me much time to take down his transports/armour an b) even if I do it makes little difference when he can do it on foot haha. I'm going to add in a Manticore and Hydra and mount up my foot sloggers in chimera and see if it helps.

So to clear a few things up (that I intentional left vague in my initial post as I wanted diverse responses) was that we usually play 1500-2000 points on a random terrain board thats a pretty average size, long edge to long edge. Also, price/cost of the models and the fact I have to go FW (slightly frustrating) or convert certain ones such as Hydras is not an issue. Althought having 4-6 Hydras seems a bit extreme lol.

My DE opponent usually goes wyches and warriors with archon an incubi in raiders with ravager support. If he feels like some CC he brings a Talos and Grotesque for fun.

Normally I go footslogger with 2 Infantry Platoons with CCS, plasma weapons an AC HWS. Then storm troopers with plasma, plasma sentinels (amazing at tighing up a CC unit that cant hurt it haha) and a leman russ of some sort for Heavy support.

I'm thinking of switching from Infantry Platoons to Veteran Squads mounted in Chimera, with Hydras, Manticore and Leman Russ for Heavy Support, Sentintels for Fast Attack, small storm trooper squads with plasma to reserve/deep strike as and when needed.

I've had some success with my Valkyrie with Storm Troopers in as it can swoop in drop them where needed such as an objective and then use its lascannon to take out transports.

[Str10_hurts]

Try searching the forums for bubble wrapping units.
This means force him to charge a unit, this unit gets destroyed and you get another round of shooting, with your other units.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2010/02/bub...they-work.html

[jjakaalbinoboy]

I'm guessing the bubble wrap units should be small, weak and preferably inexpensive, using storm troopers being a no-no?

[Tzeentch2003]

Honestly I would hold off on potentially buying a lot of stuff to retool your list for about a month. Odds are good that 6th edition will hit around then, and the answer to your question may be completely different.

[Vaktathi]

Hey folks, having trouble defeating my mates DE, they're fast and make it into shooting range T1/2, disembark an tear my guardsmen apart in CC. I've heard advice that I need more armour and Hydras?

As others have noted, Mech IG makes a pretty good mockery of most DE armies, and this was true even in the last edition.

DE are very fast and quite killy in CC, and are truly excellent at taking down tough things. Land Raiders, Hive Tyrants, etc. They have lots of weapons that reduce armor value or ignore toughness and armor saves. DE love taking the biggest scariest thing they can find and ruining it.

What IG have is a lot of stuff that doesn't give a **** about those abilities. Hydras, Chimeras, Manticores, Valkyries, Griffons, Sentinels, etc don't care about the Lance rule. Weapons that always wound on a 4+ regardless of toughness? Great, I'm T3, you're weapons are about as effective as lasguns. Lots of AP2 guns and Power weapons? Everything I'm running only sports a 5+sv anyway. You're I6 in CC? Great, I'm I3, paying those extra points for that high Init wasn't exactly useful.

Likewise, in terms of DE defensive capability, almost all IG weapons that you'll be using in any numbers aside from lasguns (stuff like multilasers and autocannons) ignore their saves and wound on a 2+ and inflict ID, which quite handily also kicks out their primary Power through Pain defensive ability.

Chimeras in particular, even back when they were generally a crap unit in the previous edition, have always been gold against DE. Multilasers and heavy bolters work great double duty as anti-infantry and anti-tank, with a BS3 multilaser being about 4x as effective against OT'd AV10 Raider as a BS4 Dark Lance is against an AV12 Chimera, and the Heavy Bolter against OT'd AV10 is also more effective than the Dark Lance is back.

Hydras will ruin any DE opponents day given that they remove on of their most important defensive abilities, have lots of shots and a high hit expectation, along with being really cheap.


IG basically have a ton of individually mediocre/weak units that basically ignore all of the advantages DE pay for, while sporting weapons that against many other armies is often seen as 'meh' works wonderful double-duty as AT and anti infantry against DE.

With IG, the key is to make things cheap and expendable, the fewer points invested, the less "elite" the unit, the better.

[Bunnahabhain]

Vakathi is absolutely spot on with the above. Guard do best when cheap and expendable against just about all opponents, and DE really exemplify this.

[jjakaalbinoboy]

OK, army list so far . . .

2000 Pts

HQ: Company Command Squad (305 pts)
. . 4 Company Command Squad, (Medi-pack; Plasma gun x3)
. . . . [b]1 Company Commander (Plasma Pistol)
. . . . 1 Astropath
. . . . 1 Bodyguard
. . . . 1 Bodyguard
. . . . 1 Master of Ordnance
. . . . 1 Chimera (Turret Multi-Laser; Hull Heavy Flamer; Extra Armor; Pintle Storm Bolter)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (655 pts)
. . 1 Infantry Platoon
. . . . 4 Platoon Command Squad (Medi-pack; Plasma gun x3)
. . . . . . 1 Platoon Commander (Plasma Pistol)
. . . . . . 1 Chimera (Turret Multi-Laser; Hull Heavy Flamer; Extra Armor; Pintle Storm Bolter)
. . . . 9 Infantry Squad (Plasma gun x1)
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant (Plasma Pistol)
. . . . . . 1 Chimera (Turret Multi-Laser; Hull Heavy Flamer; Extra Armor; Pintle Storm Bolter)
. . . . 9 Infantry Squad (Plasma gun x1)
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant (Plasma Pistol)
. . . . . . 1 Chimera (Turret Multi-Laser; Hull Heavy Flamer; Extra Armor; Pintle Storm Bolter)
. . . . 3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Autocannon x3)
. . . . 3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Autocannon x3)

Troops: Veteran Squad (215 pts)
. . 7 Veteran Squad (Plasma gun x3)
. . . . 1 Veteran Heavy Weapon Team (Autocannon)
. . . . 1 Veteran Sergeant (Plasma Pistol)
. . . . 1 Chimera (Turret Multi-Laser; Hull Heavy Flamer; Extra Armor; Pintle Storm Bolter)

Fast Attack: Armoured Sentinel Squadron (225 pts)
. . 1 Armoured Sentinel Squadron
. . . . 1 Armoured Sentinel (Plasma Cannon)
. . . . 1 Armoured Sentinel (Plasma Cannon)
. . . . 1 Armoured Sentinel (Plasma Cannon)

Heavy Support: Hydra Flak Tank Battery (130 pts)
. . 1 Hydra Flak Tank Battery
. . . . 1 Hydra Flak Tank (Heavy Bolter; Camo Netting; Extra Armor; Hunter-killer Missile; Pintle Heavy Stubber)

Heavy Support: Leman Russ Squadron (210 pts)
. . 1 Leman Russ Squadron
. . . . 1 Leman Russ Battle Tank (Lascannon; Heavy Bolter Sponsons x2; Extra Armor; Pintle Storm Bolter)

Heavy Support: Manticore Rocket Launcher (215 pts)
. . 1 Manticore Rocket Launcher (Hull Heavy Bolter; Camo Netting; Extra Armor; Pintle Storm Bolter)

Total Roster Cost: 1,955 pts

Thoughts? Feedback? Got 45pts to play with, was wondering if I should take the Chimera off the two Infantry Squads in the Platoon and buy another Veteran Squad in Chimera? Then I could use the two footslogger squads as bubble wrap?

[FraustyTheSnowman]

Using storm troopers as bubble wrap probably isn't the best expenditure of their time, no. You said you play footsloggers with two infantry platoons...how big of platoons? Do you blob them? What do your platoon command squads look like? It sounds like what you're playing has the tools to do the job (a couple hydras would be helpful, but it's not a requirement).

EDIT: the army list dropped before I posted...

The list looks decent, though I'd much rather have a vox network than the medics, but that's kinda minor. The biggest thing is the sentinels. Using sentinels as an assault tarpit is a good idea...using a squad of three plasma sentinels as one is a very expensive idea. I would recomend keeping the chimeras, but not always putting the guys in them...that way you still have the squads to use as wrapping and still have the multilasers to use for killing.

EDIT II: Yeah, what Bunnahabhain said...guard want to be cheap, all that extra junk just wastes points. I didn't notice all the extras due to the format...

[Bunnahabhain]

OK, two comments straight off.

1) Lists like that with everything, including the built in stuff, listed are very hard to read.

2) You've got TONS of not needed upgrades that cost a fortune in there. Lose every single extra armour, heavy stubber, hunter killer, camo net... EDIT : You're wasting roughly 400pts on it, or 20% of your list/ EDIT
You also don't need anywhere near that much plasma.

I bet I could get several extra units in there simply by losing the bling...

[Vaktathi]

OK, army list so far . . .

2000 Pts - Imperial Guard Roster

HQ: Company Command Squad (10#, 305 pts)
. . 4 Company Command Squad, 305 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x4; Lasgun x1; Medi-pack; Plasma gun x3)
. . . . 1 Company Commander (Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Refractor Field; Close Combat Weapon; Plasma Pistol; Senior Officer)
. . . . 1 Astropath (Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol; Telepathic Relay)
. . . . 1 Bodyguard (Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol; Look out - Arghh!)
. . . . 1 Bodyguard (Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol; Look out - Arghh!)
. . . . 1 Master of Ordnance (Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol; Artillery Bombardment)
. . . . 1 Chimera (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Turret Multi-Laser; Heavy Flamer; Extra Armor; Pintle Storm Bolter; Amphibious; Mobile Command Vehicle)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (34#, 655 pts)
. . 1 Infantry Platoon, 655 pts
. . . . 4 Platoon Command Squad (Unit Type: Infantry; Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x4; Lasgun x1; Medi-pack; Plasma gun x3)
. . . . . . 1 Platoon Commander (Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Close Combat Weapon; Plasma Pistol; Junior Officer)
. . . . . . 1 Chimera (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Turret Multi-Laser; Heavy Flamer; Extra Armor; Pintle Storm Bolter; Amphibious; Mobile Command Vehicle)
. . . . 9 Infantry Squad (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x9; Flak Armour; Lasgun x8; Plasma gun x1; Combined Squad)
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant (Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Close Combat Weapon; Plasma Pistol)
. . . . . . 1 Chimera (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Turret Multi-Laser; Heavy Flamer; Extra Armor; Pintle Storm Bolter; Amphibious; Mobile Command Vehicle)
. . . . 9 Infantry Squad (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x9; Flak Armour; Lasgun x8; Plasma gun x1; Combined Squad)
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant (Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Close Combat Weapon; Plasma Pistol)
. . . . . . 1 Chimera (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Turret Multi-Laser; Heavy Flamer; Extra Armor; Pintle Storm Bolter; Amphibious; Mobile Command Vehicle)
. . . . 3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x3; Flak Armour; Lasgun x3; Autocannon x3)
. . . . 3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x3; Flak Armour; Lasgun x3; Autocannon x3)

Troops: Veteran Squad (11#, 215 pts)
. . 7 Veteran Squad, 215 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x7; Lasgun x4; Plasma gun x3)
. . . . 1 Veteran Heavy Weapon Team (Autocannon; Frag Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x1; Flak Armour; Lasgun x1; Krak Grenades)
. . . . 1 Veteran Sergeant (Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Close Combat Weapon; Plasma Pistol)
. . . . 1 Chimera (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Turret Multi-Laser; Heavy Flamer; Extra Armor; Pintle Storm Bolter; Amphibious; Mobile Command Vehicle)

Fast Attack: Armoured Sentinel Squadron (3#, 225 pts)
. . 1 Armoured Sentinel Squadron, 225 pts
. . . . 1 Armoured Sentinel (Unit Type: Vehicle (Walker); Extra Armor; Plasma Cannon)
. . . . 1 Armoured Sentinel (Unit Type: Vehicle (Walker); Extra Armor; Plasma Cannon)
. . . . 1 Armoured Sentinel (Unit Type: Vehicle (Walker); Extra Armor; Plasma Cannon)

Heavy Support: Hydra Flak Tank Battery (1#, 130 pts)
. . 1 Hydra Flak Tank Battery, 130 pts
. . . . 1 Hydra Flak Tank (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Auto-targeting System; Heavy Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin-Linked Hydra Autocannons x2; Camo Netting; Extra Armor; Hunter-killer Missile; Pintle Heavy Stubber)

Heavy Support: Leman Russ Squadron (1#, 210 pts)
. . 1 Leman Russ Squadron, 210 pts
. . . . 1 Leman Russ Battle Tank (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Battle Cannon; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Heavy Bolter Sponsons x2; Extra Armor; Pintle Storm Bolter; Lumbering Behemoth)

Heavy Support: Manticore Rocket Launcher (1#, 215 pts)
. . 1 Manticore Rocket Launcher, 215 pts (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Storm Eagle Rockets; Heavy Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Camo Netting; Extra Armor; Pintle Storm Bolter; Limited Ammunition)

Total Roster Cost: 1955

Thoughts? Feedback? Got 45pts to play with, was wondering if I should take the Chimera off the two Infantry Squads in the Platoon and buy another Veteran Squad in Chimera? Then I could use the two footslogger squads as bubble wrap?

Bunnahabhain is correct, there's a lot of bling that can be cut here.

Personally, here's what I'd cut the HQ bodyguards and the master of Ordnance. The medic and plasma guns is allright but pricey, you may want to consider just taking 4 meltaguns. Same advice goes for the platoon commands

For the platoon Infantry squads, I'd dump the plasma weapons, especially the pistols (almost never worth it even on space Marines), and just spend 15pts for an Autocannon and a Grenade Launcher.

Take off the Extra Armor, camo netting and pintle weapons, you won't get too much use out of them.

The sentinels are pricey. PC's are useful weapons, but BS3 75pt ones aren't great, try autocannons or multilasers.

So far, you've built your list to smash marines, you've got a ton of plasma, but you really don't need that much.

Cutting the above stuff alone will give you enough points to field another mechanized platoon of guardsmen with 4x meltas for the PCS and AC/GL's for the IS's all mounted in chimeras, with points to spare. That's 3 more tanks, 25 more infantry (3 scoring units), and 14 more heavy/special weapons.

Remember, with IG, for the most part, it's always better to have more stuff than better stuff.

"Casualties are acceptable, failure is not".

[Bunnahabhain]

Further to that,

Lose all the upgrades of the hydra, and turn it into a squadron of 2( +20 pts)
Lose all the upgrades off the manticore (-30 pts gross)
Lose all the upgrades off the Russ (-55pts gross) then you can turn the Russ into a Executioner with plasma sponsons, for proper AP2 marine killing. This offsets the loss of the plasma cannons off the sentinels., and gets you 5 plasma cannon blasts for the same price as your three.

[Scibadi]

Would special weapon squads be good for bubblewrapping or are their squads too small? They can have either 3 x g. launcher, sniper or flamer and still be the same cost as a basic infantry squad.

[Bunnahabhain]

SWS as bubble wrap- not really.

They only need two casulties for a Ld check, so are easier to make run. They're also only 6 bodies, so much easier to go around, or thin down enough to get around...

That said, I've not tried them as bubble wrap other than in extemporised circumstances....

[jjakaalbinoboy]

EDIT II: Yeah, what Bunnahabhain said...guard want to be cheap, all that extra junk just wastes points. I didn't notice all the extras due to the format...

OK, two comments straight off.

1) Lists like that with everything, including the built in stuff, listed are very hard to read.

Sorry about that, I've sorted out the formatting a bit to make it more readable.

EDIT II: Yeah, what Bunnahabhain said...guard want to be cheap, all that extra junk just wastes points. I didn't notice all the extras due to the format...

2) You've got TONS of not needed upgrades that cost a fortune in there. Lose every single extra armour, heavy stubber, hunter killer, camo net... EDIT : You're wasting roughly 400pts on it, or 20% of your list

I bet I could get several extra units in there simply by losing the bling...

Bunnahabhain is correct, there's a lot of bling that can be cut here.

Personally, here's what I'd cut the HQ bodyguards and the master of Ordnance. The medic and plasma guns is allright but pricey, you may want to consider just taking 4 meltaguns. Same advice goes for the platoon commands

For the platoon Infantry squads, I'd dump the plasma weapons, especially the pistols (almost never worth it even on space Marines), and just spend 15pts for an Autocannon and a Grenade Launcher.

Take off the Extra Armor, camo netting and pintle weapons, you won't get too much use out of them.

Further to that,

Lose all the upgrades of the hydra, and turn it into a squadron of 2( +20 pts)
Lose all the upgrades off the manticore (-30 pts gross)
Lose all the upgrades off the Russ (-55pts gross) then you can turn the Russ into a Executioner with plasma sponsons, for proper AP2 marine killing. This offsets the loss of the plasma cannons off the sentinels., and gets you 5 plasma cannon blasts for the same price as your three.

Some of the stuff I get use out of though. Extra Armour keeps my tanks moving even when they can't fire so I can run and smoke. Only got a heavy stubber on the Hydra, rest have Storm Bolters as Str4 they almost always fire, dont allow armours saves on DE and are cheap. Only got a HKM on the Hydra too. Both Hydra upgrades take advantage of its auto targetting against skimmers. Only put Camo netting on relatively static vehicles like hydras and artillery.

You also don't need anywhere near that much plasma.

The sentinels are pricey. PC's are useful weapons, but BS3 75pt ones aren't great, try autocannons or multilasers.

So far, you've built your list to smash marines, you've got a ton of plasma, but you really don't need that much.

I'll admit I have too much plasma (Just played a 1k battle vs DE and had a load of flamers and they did well) but thats more out of a personal preference for the weapon than tactics.

Cutting the above stuff alone will give you enough points to field another mechanized platoon of guardsmen with 4x meltas for the PCS and AC/GL's for the IS's all mounted in chimeras, with points to spare. That's 3 more tanks, 25 more infantry (3 scoring units), and 14 more heavy/special weapons.

Remember, with IG, for the most part, it's always better to have more stuff than better stuff.

[Bunnahabhain]

The thing is, all of those upgrades are of marginal or occasional use....

Simply cutting them in favour of many more units will be more use all the time.

For example, that one hydra, currently:. . . . 1 Hydra Flak Tank (Heavy Bolter; Camo Netting; Extra Armor; Hunter-killer Missile; Pintle Heavy Stubber)
If you change it for two un-upgraded Hydras.
Getting one of the squadron in cover gives both of them a cover save, which will work far more often than the camo netting
The squadron gets extra armour as standard, for free
You replace the heavy stubber with a heavy bolter i.e. you lose a pintle stubber, and gain a hull heavy bolter.
You replace the hunter killer with 2 TL autocannons
You are harder to cripple with weapon destroyed results, having twice as many autocannons
You have two tanks, so are harder to kill.

The best way to see this is to lose the upgrades and then with minor tweaks, you can run this as a 1500pts list. You should see how little you lose by not having them....

[jjakaalbinoboy]

The thing is, all of those upgrades are of marginal or occasional use....

Simply cutting them in favour of many more units will be more use all the time.

For example, that one hydra, currently:. . . . 1 Hydra Flak Tank (Heavy Bolter; Camo Netting; Extra Armor; Hunter-killer Missile; Pintle Heavy Stubber)
If you change it for two.
Getting one of the squadron in cover gives both of them a cover save, which will work far more often than the camo netting
The squadron gets extra armour as standard, for free
You replace the heavy stibber with a heavy bolter
You replace the hunter killer with 2 TL autocannons
You are harder to cripple with weapon destroyed results, having twice as many autocannons
You have two tanks, so are harder to kill.

The best way to see this is to lose the upgrades and then with minor tweaks, you can run this as a 1500pts list. You should see how little you lose by not having them....

What did you mean by "You replace the heavy stubber with a heavy bolter"?

[MyNameDidntFit]

I'm guessing the bubble wrap units should be small, weak and preferably inexpensive, using storm troopers being a no-no?

Storm Troopers are exactly what DE want you to take--expensive, small and specialised against MEQ and vehicles. Useless against DE.