Why do people want to make this a different game?

[Chapters Unwritten]

I see so many threads about what should be changed about 40k. I see cries that the game is totally unbalanced. I see outrage that the game should be designed from a more streamlined perspective to make it more friendly to competitive play. I see people angry that some armies have abilities and others don't. My answer is...why?

This all came about when, in another thread about the hobby, someone likened playing 40k but hating the hobby/modeling/painting/rule of cool approach to someone taking up boating because they like tying knots. That comment really resonated with me. The game is full of this sort of person; people who play the game and consider it inherently flawed and in dire need of revision, particularly when it comes to "balance." Now, it is not a perfectly balanced game, but it's hardly unfair to anyone at the moment, even the old books aren't completely out of luck facing new books. The game is often depicted as unplayable and in dire need of rescue and that simply isn't true; it's the most playable and least awkward it's been in a long time, if you ask me. Maybe it's not fair, but it's not fair in the way that

I just don't understand why you would play this of all games, when you want tight competition-centric rules, don't care about modeling or painting, and invest nothing into the Warhammer 40k universe's mythos. There's a lot to this game and the amount of people who hate such a large percentage of it is just staggering.

Now, I am at a phase where I am becoming jaded with the game myself but not for any of these reasons. I just dislike the approach it's taking lately. All these goofy looking planes, and everyone riding in tanks. I miss the old days of 4th and early 5th where armies were clashing in a manner akin to the Dawn of War 1 intro. Now, the battlefields seem slightly more "zoomed out," as model counts go up and vehicles are everywhere. Couple this with a very thankless and difficult stint as a club leader with no support and you basically see why I could become jaded. But my approach was to begin crafting my own science fiction game. I guess I just don't understand why more people don't just not play this game, or try to craft something of their own in line with 40k's presumbed fallibility.

It's an entertaining game that supports a fun (IMO) hobby, and that's all it's ever purported to be. Why do so many people want to turn this game into something it is not and never has been?

[Gargantuan]

Because I'm stuck with 40k since that's what the vast majority of wargamers in my town play.
If I could play Warmahordes or Heavy Gear in my town then I wouldn't complain about 40k.

I'm moving to another town on Sunday since I finally got a job () and I hope there's more diversity there.

[Konovalev]

Whiners will whine about anything. It's a compulsive urge to justify the victimization they have created for themselves. Those who are content, those who are capable of understanding that it's just a game and do not let the opinions of others control their mood have very little to shout about.

Those who cannot enjoy the hobby for what it is, whine on the forums about what it isn't. Again and again.

[Lord Inquisitor]

In many cases it's turning the game back to something it used to be, whether people want a return to the bedlam and detail of 2nd or the relatively streamlined codecies of 4th.

But there are many reasons to want to play the game. I still love the models and the background (although much of the new background has gone downhill), but the codecies from the start of 5th ed onwards have just put me off the game. My gaming group is pretty WFB focused so that's where I keep most of my attention. There are still many reasons I'd like to play the game, but damn if Ward and Cruddace haven't wrecked the army books for me. The game itself isn't half bad, but the top-heavy design of just overloading the codecies with endless rules verbage and increasingly silly new units have put me off. Ridiculous rules for the sake of rules. So I'd love to see a return to the 4th ed codecies like Orks or Daemons which had good fluff, just about the right balance of fun and practical rules design and not so many plain stupid new units.

[Rated_lexxx]

Because in general I really like this game and that is why I play it. There are problems for sure, but the fun I have playing outweighs my complaints

[unknown_lifeform]

Wargamers seem inherantly prone to whining. I don't know why exactly that should be, whether its a trait common to geeks or if it has something to do with the largely intelligent and well educated demographic wargaming appeals to.

Also, people kind of get trapped into playing GW games. Partly its because GW games are hugely popular and the easiest games to find opponents for. Partly its the huge investment in time and money most wargamers make. I have multiple 40k and WFB armies that I've spent years painting and have seen multiple edition and army book changes. Many gamers can say the same. So its hardly surprising that when GW release an edition they don't like, or an army book that sucks or breaks things by being OP or silly that people get upset. Since they are powerless to actually change things (other than wait for the wheel to turn again) they vent their frustration through whining, which is understandable really. As far as making homebrew rules goes, that's where GWs popularity works against you since is hard to get large numbers of fellow gamers to go along with your non standard rules.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Ah, whining about whining, the most useless kind of whining.

The problem I have with your post is that almost all your premises are incorrect. For example... People who don't care about painting or modeling aren't that put out by codex imbalance. Hey, look, their unpainted marines are now Grey Knights, no big deal, at least the color is right for a change. But when someone spends a lot of time creating a beautiful fluffy army, only to find that they're severely handicapped in-game, that's a whole different issue.

For another thing. Things will change. Constant churning of the ruleset is a given. And sufficiently loud outcries do get back to the designers (whether they do anything about it is another matter). Why wouldn't interested parties put in a plug?

Oh, and yeah, the balance right now is terrible. I would say the distinction between top-tier and mid-tier is the highest it's been since 2nd edition. Aside from some specific matchups, the 3.5 chaos codex and the old Kraftworld codex never even vied for the absurdities now in routine use.

[Scaryscarymushroom]

I think it's because homebrew rules can serve the 40k "mythos" better than GW can; and make GW's awesome models more entertaining to use in games.

I've reacted by doing both-- make my own sci-fi game, and make a Sister of Battle codex. My SoB codex is perfect for me. It adds character and functionality to my favorite army in 40k; and even just writing up the rules was fun.

[snottlebocket]

They don't really. This forum and fora like it give a very skewed image of warhammer players. It's full of very vocal competitive players who feel the game doesn't suit their needs.

And they're right. The game doesn't suit the needs of competitive players because they're an insignificant minority of GW's customer base. The game isn't and won't be designed with competition in mind.

[Iron Puritan]

Wargamers seem inherantly prone to whining. I don't know why exactly that should be, whether its a trait common to geeks or if it has something to do with the largely intelligent and well educated demographic wargaming appeals to.

QFT. Every message board I have ever seen that caters to wargames, from fantasy to historicals, has more than its fair share of critics. To bring this around to Games Workshop games, there are a number of constants in terms of criticism. The criticisms I find most interesting revolve around game mechanics. There has been a lot of innovation in wargaming over the past five to ten years. Now that an increasing number of GW's customer base have tried other rulesets, they expect more of GW in terms of quality and gameplay. What would be really cool is if GW broke away from a strict IGO-UGO format for WH40K.

[Yodhrin]

QFT. Every message board I have ever seen that caters to wargames, from fantasy to historicals, has more than its fair share of critics. To bring this around to Games Workshop games, there are a number of constants in terms of criticism. The criticisms I find most interesting revolve around game mechanics. There has been a lot of innovation in wargaming over the past five to ten years. Now that an increasing number of GW's customer base have tried other rulesets, they expect more of GW in terms of quality and gameplay. What would be really cool is if GW broke away from a strict IGO-UGO format for WH40K.

I never understand that attitude, to be honest. I mean, if you enjoy the rules from another game...play that game? Why does everyone want everything homogenised so its all the same? 40K without an IGO-UGO turn system would be like changing the rules of Football so you can use your hands; it wouldn't be the same game anymore.

[DietDolphin]

Wargamers seem inherantly prone to whining. I don't know why exactly that should be, whether its a trait common to geeks or if it has something to do with the largely intelligent and well educated demographic wargaming appeals to.

It's to do with being a geek. Geeks whine about all the possible ways things could be better, other people accept things and move on. How many athletes do you hear whining about their sport (not the players or ref, but the actual game)?

It's the same reason most wargamers are unfit/overweight, they're too busy whining about Mountian Dew and Doritos not being healthy instead of getting up off their **** and going to the gym!

Do I like some of the newer background? not really. Sure if someone asks for my opinion then I'll tell them what I think, but in the end if something bugs me I'll just forget about it and move on and adapt, rather than going online and starting up the same old useless threads.

[Panzeh]

Never complain or analyze anything. Just make posts that fawn over everything GW puts out.

[slaanghoul]

is the OP whining also?

[Abaraxas]

I play 2nd edition.

[Iron Puritan]

I never understand that attitude, to be honest. I mean, if you enjoy the rules from another game...play that game? Why does everyone want everything homogenised so its all the same? 40K without an IGO-UGO turn system would be like changing the rules of Football so you can use your hands; it wouldn't be the same game anymore.

It's not so much about homogenization as it is about adding tactical depth to the game. Even if a 100% IGO-UGO model is retained, I hope they make refinements to the core game mechanics that will move WH40K away from its over-dependence on list building toward a more balanced affair.

[Reivax26]

So the old Codexes are just as competitive as the new ones...ok. Grey Knight player decides to be a bastard and takes 4 Strike Squads. His Rhinos are even placed apart. He moves up 12 and throws Warp Quake. Now the Daemon player has just died. See how fair that sounds? Well it shouldn't seem fair because it isn't. Being able to take infinity different weapon upgrades in one squad to maximize wound allocation across 10 guys isn't fair, its making a mockery of what the game should be. Fun? Tactics to win a game? No its pretty much who can outcheese the next guy quicker than he can do it to you. Not to mention that every codex seems to want to try to OP the one before it in some way or form.

My 2 Cents

[RandomThoughts]

I don't know, in my opinion, legitimate criticism and discussion can easily be misread as whining.

Personally, I have pretty much moved on. I own 4 Warmachine armies to 1.5 GW armies now. I enjoy the additional tactical depth where player make actual, meaningful decisions and not just roll dice and hope they brought a mightier army than their opponent. I also get to immerse myself in the game more, as there are far less WTF moments yanking me out, situations where the game happening on the table contradict both the fluff and often common sense.

However, I did invest heavily in my Eldar army, and some of the people I enjoy gaming with outright refuse to play anything else but 40K. And, to be honest, I love the setting and the background. So, I still linger, I still take an interest, I still participate in discussions - and I don't really see why I shouldn't point out flaws as they come up.

[Spell_of_Destruction]

Maybe it's because people want a deeper and more rewarding game. RandomThoughts gets it exactly right - there is such a thing as legitimate criticism. It's a cop out to justify poorly designed rules by saying "this is just what 40k is, man".

I'm not really a competitve gamer. I barely play in tournaments. But even for casual play the game isn't that much fun anymore.

[Bassik]

It's a game of two (hopefully) friends that want to play with their toy soldiers. I think 40K got that right.