I am going to counter this by asking "How do you think other wargames get popular?" because its not by whizz advertising, or even by a FLGS promoting it.Originally Posted by Gorbad Ironclaw
Its about people challenging the status quo in their clubs and being enthusiastic about something they believe in. GWs "huge advantage" is that the vast majority of people are too lazy to want to put the effort in.
Free your hobby! Be creative and stop slavishly following the damn Book.
RIP Brimstone.
I used to read the GW Other Forum, but I am much happier now.
People just want the game to be individual to them, to be what they wish it could be, let's face it on the surface 40k works, its flawed, its clunky, its treated badly by gw and certain players but it works, but some people want more, and who can blame them, and some ideas are awesome and some are just stupid, but hey 40k like all rulesystens belong to YOU the player, and its up to you to do whatever you like with them, gw will not send the thought police.
It's just a shame a good chunk of players will as they don't ever understand that no game in existance works straight out the book, all require work as they are just templates, the chaos codex is a great example, every 5 minutes somebody will moan about the chaos codex for hours, but they won't just sit and tweak the codex, if talk to there gaming group about improving it, why?, because they can't be bothered even though it will improve the game for them.
Last edited by sakura_ninja; 26-05-2012 at 23:21.
To try and answer the OP, people care about the game because they like the backgound, theme, models and hobby (including gaming with their 40k-playing friends). Because they care, they want the ruleset to be better. I don't post about things that are wrong with Warmachine because I don't give a damn.
because if it was as simple as leaving behind a £300 army that you have spent a year on to make it look like something you want, to go to another system and collect that (not exclusively but even if so, so waht?) more would do it.
I do play hordes from time to time... but i wont leave gw to play it all the time... and telling me that i cant complain about things that i paid money for, and spent my spare time on, isnt a smart move.
as someone pointed out above.. whining about whiners is a real dick move. if you dont like it.. shove off to a forum that does. forums are breeder of hate but also love for a gaming system... saying that we liked old codices better or that previous editions were better isnt a bad thing... its just a shame that GW and other companies dont listen to veterans of the game, but rather line their pockets with xmas/bday money of naive kids.
they could easily pander to us and still make money.. as half the new kids play the game co9z its cool anyway... at least in my lgs... its hard to find a new player of 1year and under that knows the game.
when the LGS is a gw and in most places ONLY a gw... trying to talk them into changing rules because the fans think it could be good to do that... yeah good luck with that. Mine is a 1st company store (meaning its one of the best of the best in UK), slap bang in the centre of the city, opposite a major thoroughfare for events and a major tourist destination, getting them to even play apoc on a quiet day.. is nigh on impossible.. or if it does happen its "250pts each 1hq 1 troops" because what was going to be a rematch between 4-5 people, turns into a kiddie festival... its a place where a LOTR game happens once in 2-3months but they still have a 6x4 board set up in a wotr, for beginners or players. and the less saiud about the 9months of dreadfleet we had set up that not a soul touched, the better.
so there are people in this community that have a reason to complain about the way gw treats veterans (the term we use for people who have been in the store and collecting for at least 2years, so not quite the 12 that ive been playing, or 20 in the case of my friend.. was in that store from day 1 opening as a 6thcompany 1man store) and even new players of 1-2years..
sorry for double post.
I'm not denying that this is a big part of the problem, but given that GW has always made no secret of the fact that it considers itself a miniatures company, with rules being a supporting factor on the side, and just about everyone knows this, to consistently whine about it seems like (to use the ongoing fast food analogy) going in to MacDonalds, buying a cheeseburger, and complaining that it's not KFC.
Though my guards may sleep and ships may lie at anchor, our foes know full well that big guns never tire.
If you really want to see a god of murder, keep going with the off topic
No idea where you are posting from, but I have had the impression that gaming clubs are a predominantly European phenomenon. It is something I wish I saw more often here in Canada. I know of a historical group in Toronto, and I would imagine there are others in other major cities, but there are no independent groups locally. Gaming in this city revolves primarily around the local stores. This has established a strong link between what is being sold and what is being played. The internet has made it much easier for a lot of gaming companies to get their product out there, but I think a lot of gamers are still dependent on their local stores taking the first step.
It might be more accurate to say that Games Workshop has had a persistent identity crisis. The manufacturing side of Games Workshop has not only influenced a lot of rule design decisions over the years, it has become much more open about doing so. Yet on the other hand, many of their public faces have been dedicated wargaming enthusiasts. Things like Forge World and Warhammer Historical (RIP) would most likely not exist if it were not for bona fide enthusiasts within the organization. This has lead to some contradictory expectations that exist between the customer base and the company.
Speaking of wargaming enthusiasts, it has been interesting watching Rick Priestley's post-GW career. The man has been busy!
I would say that the game is perfect as it is. It is the players lack of ability in commanding their army that makes them be defeated. Armies aren't unbalanced, Space Marines are super human immortal warriors wearing armour so broad and thick that they aren't meant to die to some runty squig herder with a pitchfork! Tyranids are made for close combat and excel at such things. Necrons are made to be relentless and evil. Grey knights are overpowered? they are DEMON hunters not frickin mushroom collectors. They have to hunt and fight demons day in day out. They are made to kill them. It's all about how you play your army, how you set it up, where you place the models, how you spread your points cost, how you roll your die. It's down to you. You as the player have the choice of what to play and how to play it. If you get wiped out and feel it's unfair, maybe you should look at where the buck stops. Your opponent didn't roll your invulnerability save, he didn't choose your elite choice, he didn't roll your armor save that could have saved your greater demon. YOU did.
This game is perfect as it is. Always has been, always will be. It is down to the players inexperience, incapability and incompetency at being a general that they lose.
you ask: Why do people want to change the game? because they suck at it. Because they feel cheated by the rules they knew about when they started their ill fated game. Because they can't handle that their opponent rolled 10 6's in a row and saved every single one of his invulnerability saves and all they could do was roll 1's.
There will always be (always) someone within every game ever made that complains about something. It seems human nature. People just aren't happy to accept something as it is. They are much more happy to gripe and groan and moan about it.
4 strike squads + 2 interceptor squads, and the demon player can't even put a single miniature on the table.
Perfect balance.
All demon players are the worst players in the world. They are just too weak to put their models.
I believe your utterly wrong, no wargame is balanced, none, not even anything done by gw, that is not opinion its cold hard fact, you cannot point out a single rule system that is perfectly balanced made by any company.
And then to turn around and say its because the players Re no good...wow, that is the single most elitist statement I have ever heard in my life, so its a chaos players fault that possessed and dreadnoughts and bikers and raptors are all too expensive and not very good.
But its not GW's fault if an entire purifier spam list is one of the most powerful lists around and.its actually perfectly balanced?
Its a players fault that a kill point mission always favours the smaller army.
Rubbish.
Without being offensive you are wrong.
You don't know what your talking about.
this!
4) play another tabletop game. And following:Unfortunately for GW, this is not the 80s or 90s anymore where the lack of a centralized way of publishing rules updates was unavailable. Their website is perfectly suited to store FAQs, amendments and balance fixes and the like. While the first is handled well (usually!), they do not seem interested in actively maintaining their game. Customer unhappy with their army do one of three things:
1) leave the hobby. That's fine, chances are your army was finished so you weren't contributing to GW's revenue stream anyway (i.e. buying more models).
2) keep playing anyway. Cool, you provide some flavour for people to fight against, help them with the hobby, etc. Win for GW.
3) buy a new army. Hurruh, you're now GW's favourite kind of customer!
5) get your friends to make the switch as well.
Well, I used to do this. House rules for all kind of stuff. Tabletops. Pen 6 Paper RPGs. I eventually stopped doing that, because the effort usually outweighs the benefit. In wargaming, it's not just writing the house rules, it's convincing other people to give them a shot. Some broken elements of a game are so central to the core rules, they are impossible to house rule without 20 pages of follow up. (Like saves and vehicle armor, my biggest issue with 40K at present), other times it's underpowered units I try to make playable, like Eldar Guardians; my proposal was rejected by my gaming pals because "they are fine. stop whining"; in the end, it's just not worth bothering, really. Which is why I want a good rule system which takes care of these things for me.
See above.
Well, in my experience, new players hear about that approximately 1 year and 500€ after they started the game. We know it, because we are invested in 40K enough to bother reading websites and joining discussions beyond "I started Ultramarines and continue getting hossed. What can I do?!"
Narrow-minded viewpoint? First of all, 40K has huge balancing issues, if you don't believe it, try building a foot'dar army. I've been playing foot'dar for two years now, I still win the majority of my games at our local club, but that's usually despite the army, not because of the army.
Secondly, balance issues are just one problem with the game. I won't repeat myself here, as I consider it rude, if you care, read my post 2 pages ago. Essentially, I listed about a dozen common sense issues, rules that go against fluff and player expectation. I'm talking about things like "shooting your weapons at the enemy as you rush in to charge him will often deny you the charge altogether and leave you in a more vulnerable position. Same thing with covering fire from other units supporting your chargers; instead of driving them into cover to reduce the amount of firepower they can throw at your charging guys, all it does is remove the front models, which increases the distance between the charger and the charge, and as a result often denies the assault it was meant to support". Sure, we get used to these things, to the point where we question them no longer, but please don't insult those of us that still do!
Currently really psyched about: My Cygnar army
My Warmachine Tactics Intoduction Guide
I would have said a couple of years ago that it was due to 'ye olde',
Dear GW,
Nerf rock.
Paper is fine.
Regards,
Scissors
But without repeating much of what has already been said, there are some major imbalances in current gameplay. Previous editions never seemed to suffer from the same scale of problems. I'm just hoping that 6th edition has been based (even loosely) on community feedback. I won't be holding my breath though.
When there is no other way, the perilous path is the only road to salvation - Eldrad Ulthran
Actually if you logically think about it this is the same process as I have described, just with the LGS doing all the work with commitment etc. Their reward is that they get money for the product but they still have to try and persuade people to buy into these things. If they just stock the product and do not actively recruit for it, then again it still comes down to a gamer picking up the product and trying to convince people to play it. It appears to me that in the US, Canada and other places what you have is the amalgamation of club/LGS to provide a gaming environment (I am not sure how healthy this is tbh, but it works over there). So those activities you traditionally see in a club are just transplanted into the LGS.
Free your hobby! Be creative and stop slavishly following the damn Book.
RIP Brimstone.
I used to read the GW Other Forum, but I am much happier now.
@yabbadabba.
I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make about us streamiling rules to make them suitable for younger gamers.
ALL the basic resolution and simulation was kept , to give an enjoyable intuitive senario for them to play.
But we just cut down the complication in the rules.
And when they are happy we move on to the next senario, then the next, untill they are up to speed with the whole rule set.
GW plc seems to totaly understimate the intellegence of young gamer IMO.
It would make learning the rules so much quicker and the game far more tactical , IF the rules were written to deliver the current 40k game play.
Rather than starting with WHFB , and mutating it horrendously to try to get 40k.
This may mean using different game mechanics to deliver INTUITIVE game play!
(The game plays like the background, you know like Epic Armageddon does!)
Most people are happy with the idea of 40k.But some think the rules shouldnt stop it happening on the table.
And they offer consructive critisism.
Complexity is an illusion caused by lack of clear thinking.
Between Forgeworld and Citadel, the Miniatures are getting pretty damn nice. Even if you don't like the design you can quite easily convert things to your liking. Naturally they cost too much, but we'll pay for them and it's allegedly a free market.
So I think in that department the game has improved. Especially since FW is producing tons of nostalgic designs with more modern tech.
The rules have never been right. They never will be right. There is no "right" because not everyone wants the same things. There will never be balance either because it's a game open to abuse by the freedom of it. Balance is two players with the same lists playing each other. Maybe that's fun, probably not. I mean people moan about playing "cookie cutter lists" in tournaments.
40k is basically about minimizing negative outcomes and maximizing positive outcomes. It's a blend of strategy and gambling as are any good war games. It won't be balanced between players because some people are good at that and others are not. Likewise list building has a lot to do with success. However it should. It's a blend of strategy in selecting and outfitting your force and tactics on the battlefield. The game should be decided before the game begins between the skill of the player and the strength of his forces. However chance and other factors will hopefully shift that balance to walking a sword's edge between victory and defeat.
Can it be improved? Yes, by YOU the player. If you have a problem, fix it yourself. Other people might not consider that a problem. Heck they might really like it.
Last edited by Col. Tartleton; 27-05-2012 at 13:30.
Your uncertainty about the amalgamation of gaming clubs and retailers is warranted. The challenge is that stores are something of a closed loop. There are some elements of etiquette at play that would not be present at an independent club or a private home. It would be kind of a dick move to be playing a game not sold at a store unless you were doing so with the intent of demonstrating it to the proprietor. Viewing this as an impossible dynamic is wrong-headed, but it makes store based environments slower to change unless there is direct involvement on the part of the management. The healthiest stores will be run by someone who always keeps an eye out for potential revenue streams, but given the narrow margins of a lot of gaming stores, some proprietors are very skittish about change.
Nope, I think you might have had a sense of humour failure.
Free your hobby! Be creative and stop slavishly following the damn Book.
RIP Brimstone.
I used to read the GW Other Forum, but I am much happier now.
I don't think its whining they're geniunlly trying to help by bringing up the issues they face in hope that it'll eventually reach the designers ears, they're also throwing the ball around with ideas in the hope they'll inspire that brilliant flash of inspiration with the designers to make the game better and more balanced. Whining as you call it is what i call feedback, and its a good thing. Cause While the designers may be smart people who are actually paid full time to figure it out we as a community log enormously many more hours with the system than they can during play testing. Each edition is actually play testing for the next one, that's the point of editions (that and selling new minis and Codices)
Feedback is normally given to the recipient, not via corner of internet which often gives the impression of hating your company and wanting it to fail. (We might giggle about the whineseer tag but in all seriousness that atmosphere hardly slls itself as a reliable form of feedback).
Whining and moaning is a normal (if irritating) part of social interaction- of bonding with people who share similar opinions. The problem with the internet is that, unlike in real life, its hard to tell what people really think as there are no non-verbal cues etc. Also, whereas real life social interaction develops to build community, internet based interaction has significantly less reponsibility so it becomes various groups shout,often exaggerated, opinions while not listening to contrary points.
Hence people moaning and whining on here to effect change on 40k really aren't making best use of their time.
But im convinced it is just moaning for the sake of it, if people really find the game so bad why spend so much time on about it? Why not play the better games you've discovered? The way some people are about badmouthing 40k (and GW in general), particularly if they have quit, is a bit like going on about an ex- doesn't make it look Ikee you're over it...
Maulerfiends are on the loose, Maulerfiends are go;
Mauler, Mauler, Mauler, Maulerfiends!
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
