How do the little guys win?

[Montegue]

What I meant by results was the list of results at the tournament, i.e. what army came in each position. It makes a huge difference. His list is certainly good however.

Ah. The person who "won" was a WoC player that brought a ton of craziness to the table. Unfortunately, his soft scores prevented him from the overall. The Empire player was one point above him in the final standings, but they wound up never facing one another. I think in terms of raw battle score it was WoC, Empire, and then Ogres. In terms of all scores put together, it was Empire, WoC, Ogres.

I do believe that the Empire list was the only one with any chance of beating that Chaos list.

[Morkash]

Hehe, it's funny to see Empire and Vampires as rather mediocre armies in uncomped environments... Under the comp we use here these 2 are considered the strongest armies, depending on the specific restrictions of the tournament. VC with the Black Knights bus and generally lots of stuff on the table while Empire has lots of supportive stuff and Demigryphs (which the tournament people consider the strongest unit in the game).
Now while I do not agree with this (I'm too Ogre-biased ), the direct comparison with this thread is quite interesting.

[Memnos]

Godless: Fanatics are hilariously predictable for people who take small units of Orcs.

Take Orc unit. Place in front of Goblin unit so that the front is 6 inches in front of the Goblin unit. When other unit charges the Orc unit, release your own fanatics through the Orcs on a diagonal. Adding 2 inches to each one means you'll have to roll an 11 or 12 to bounce through. Most likely all 3 will land smack dab in front, causing 6d6 hits. Laugh.l

[Urgat]

Under the comp we use here these 2 are considered the strongest armies, depending on the specific restrictions of the tournament.

There is something terribly wrong with that sentence :/

Godless: Fanatics are hilariously predictable for people who take small units of Orcs.

Take Orc unit. Place in front of Goblin unit so that the front is 6 inches in front of the Goblin unit. When other unit charges the Orc unit, release your own fanatics through the Orcs on a diagonal. Adding 2 inches to each one means you'll have to roll an 11 or 12 to bounce through. Most likely all 3 will land smack dab in front, causing 6d6 hits. Laugh.l

First of all it's only 3D6, and you use orcs for the fanatic catapult, with three fanatics together to boot? The target better be worth it, because your opponent is allowed to laugh just as much as you otherwise

[Djekar]

Urgat, he's talking about the extra 3d6 from the charging unit being forced to land on the fanatic in their way.

[Urgat]

Ah, yeah, missed that it was on the opponent's turn. Find me someone who declares the charge in that situation though. Either he has never played against fanatics before, or he deserves to lose whatever you do... Doesn't change the fact using a small unit of orcs for that isn't a good idea.

[Morkash]

There is something terribly wrong with that sentence :/

Hehe, I agree. I meant that depending on the ruleset of the tournament one of the two becomes better/worse than the other. How many warmachines/Demigryphs for Empire? How many models per unit etc.

[I3uLLioN]

As has been mentioned. The differences between armies is massively exaggerated, especially on the internet. Tiers and such are entirely subjective, pretty useless and almost always wrong.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Godless: Fanatics are hilariously predictable for people who take small units of Orcs.

Take Orc unit. Place in front of Goblin unit so that the front is 6 inches in front of the Goblin unit. When other unit charges the Orc unit, release your own fanatics through the Orcs on a diagonal. Adding 2 inches to each one means you'll have to roll an 11 or 12 to bounce through. Most likely all 3 will land smack dab in front, causing 6d6 hits. Laugh.l

This is horrible and I've seen it done, with some refinement:

The unit in front is a horde of squigs, so 1/3 of the casualties inflicted by friendly fanatics go on goblins. They're released from the back of the goblin unit behind (inflicting hits on the parent unit, but they're only goblins.) That way it's 6D6 automatic hits on the charging unit with no chance of failure. A nasty trick if you can't draw out the fanatics.

[Memnos]

Ah, yeah, missed that it was on the opponent's turn. Find me someone who declares the charge in that situation though. Either he has never played against fanatics before, or he deserves to lose whatever you do... Doesn't change the fact using a small unit of orcs for that isn't a good idea.

It's tough to draw out fanatics when you have to get within 2 inches of another unit to do so with good deployment.

But maybe you're right. Maybe it's a really bad idea to do that.

Let's find out: 3d6 is... What? 10? 11 hits on a unit of Orcs? Wounding on 3s, so 6-7 Orcs are killed.

If the opponent is more expensive than Orcs(Likely, if you're waiting for him to fall in to your trap), he gets hit by 21 armor piercing hits on average.

So if you killed, say... 18 Swordsmasters/Black Guard or 14 Warriors of Chaos, you're suggesting that losing the 6-7 Orcs means the opponent will be just as pleased as you at the outcome?

I obviously don't want to put words in your mouth, but I don't want to argue a point that you didn't make, so I'm hoping you'll clarify before I do, Urgat. Why would 10 hits on a super cheap, relatively tough unit be just as bad for me as 21 hits on an opponents unit?

[Gertjan]

I obviously don't want to put words in your mouth, but I don't want to argue a point that you didn't make, so I'm hoping you'll clarify before I do, Urgat. Why would 10 hits on a super cheap, relatively tough unit be just as bad for me as 21 hits on an opponents unit?

It can be dangerous losing 6-7 orcs in a small unit depending on your deployment, if your general/bsb isn't around it can mean stuff starts running, ofcourse it usually is worth it but depending on deployment etc. it might be a risky tactic. If your orcs decide to run of they might drag other units along with them or leave a flank exposed that you might not want to have happened. At leats that's one of the disadvantages I can think of.

[Memnos]

It can be dangerous losing 6-7 orcs in a small unit depending on your deployment, if your general/bsb isn't around it can mean stuff starts running, ofcourse it usually is worth it but depending on deployment etc. it might be a risky tactic. If your orcs decide to run of they might drag other units along with them or leave a flank exposed that you might not want to have happened. At leats that's one of the disadvantages I can think of.

Fair enough. That definitely could be a risk and one you'd have to consider when you set up the trap in the first place, but definitely a good point.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Clearly in this trap the Orc n Goblin player is not going to put a unit in front that they are concerned about losing 3D6 models from. It isn't going to be a small or vulnerable unit. The potential payout against elites is horrible.

[Ghremdal]

Trolls are a good unit to send fanatics through as well.

Also there is a trick of hand of gork'ing a NG unit to the flank of the opponent battle line. You can catch more then a few enemy units like that if he lined them up nicely.

[decker_cky]

For a mid tier army to beast a top tier army (ie demons, dark elves, skaven, lizards, ogres) you need at least one of three things (assuming that the players are of roughly equal skill):

1) A list that is designed to handle the army you are facing in question (when I build all comers lists with Empire, I am essentially building a list that is as "anti" those 5 armies as possible and taking my chances with other matchups).

2) Better deployment/terrain use. Deployment and the strategic use of terrain can make a huge difference in many games.

3) Luck. You are going to need the dice gods to be smiling on you.

Hopefully when the 8th edition books are all out, the only "mistake" left will be ogres and we won't have to have these discussions any more.

Beastmen actually compete fine with the hard lists. There's not a lot of lists that beastmen really struggle with. The problem with beastmen in competitive is that they don't have easy match ups, and they're quite vulnerable to bad dice rolls at key times (eg, they're slaves to their magic, general and BSB surviving more than most).

Also, beastmen are probably one of the better lists for dealing with ogres, as mentioned.

[Urgat]

It's tough to draw out fanatics when you have to get within 2 inches of another unit to do so with good deployment.

But maybe you're right. Maybe it's a really bad idea to do that.

Let's find out: 3d6 is... What? 10? 11 hits on a unit of Orcs? Wounding on 3s, so 6-7 Orcs are killed.

If the opponent is more expensive than Orcs(Likely, if you're waiting for him to fall in to your trap), he gets hit by 21 armor piercing hits on average.

So if you killed, say... 18 Swordsmasters/Black Guard or 14 Warriors of Chaos, you're suggesting that losing the 6-7 Orcs means the opponent will be just as pleased as you at the outcome?

I obviously don't want to put words in your mouth, but I don't want to argue a point that you didn't make, so I'm hoping you'll clarify before I do, Urgat. Why would 10 hits on a super cheap, relatively tough unit be just as bad for me as 21 hits on an opponents unit?

I'm suggesting that maybe your opponent isn't going to do exactly what you want him to, which is exactly what this tactic relies on. And drawing out fanatics has never been easier than in 8th ed. if the common internet opinion is stupid enough to believe that light cavalry is useless, it's not my fault :/ Vanguard and marching is the bane of any fanatic unit, and in my area, people do field them still, to good use too.
So...

If the opponent is more expensive than Orcs(Likely, if you're waiting for him to fall in to your trap)

... likely? your opponent sees a small unit of orcs with a strange unit of night goblins (to most people, night goblins = fanatics, remember? And most people are right to boot, too) right behind it, you think it's likely he's going to charge with his elite infantry? Seriously? Ah you know what, that's fine, if it works for you, it's great, seriously The people I play, if stuck in the above scenario with absolutely no way out, would just wait for you to charge, halving the hits. That's the only way I've ever pulled the catapult, by going for the 3D6 hits in my turn, walking the delivering unit (a fat unit of cheap goblins, not twenty orcs ) to the enemy, and walking the carrying unit to the back of the delivering unit. Then, your opponent can't do much about it indeed.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Urgat, it isn't quite as you're portraying it. See my example above. It isn't a small unit of orcs in front, it is a mainline horde of squigs or orcs, not something to be ignored. The only practical way to draw out fanatics (unless you have flying chaff) is to charge the unit in front with chaff and with manglers, pump wagons and more than one unit of goblins with fanatics it gets really tough to deal with unless you have a lot of fast moving chaff. I can tell you that I ended up having to charge one such unit in a game with a mainline unit of my own (ironguts as it happened) and 6D6 auto hits is no joke. Certainly if I ever see that setup again, the fanatics will be brought out as a priority but even that is a win because my strategy is being controlled by the other player. It's a nasty way of amplifying the damage potential of the fanatics and making one or more mainline units unapproachable until you get rid of the fanatics.

[Urgat]

Urgat, it isn't quite as you're portraying it. See my example above. It isn't a small unit of orcs in front, it is a mainline horde of squigs or orcs, not something to be ignored.

Not in Memnos' case. He clearly said a small unit of orcs. I use that tactic too, every goblin player probably uses that tactic, it's a common one since 6th ed. They use big units that can fight, fanatics behind or not.
Your purple is a pain for quotes

The only practical way to draw out fanatics (unless you have flying chaff) is to charge the unit in front with chaff and with manglers, pump wagons and more than one unit of goblins with fanatics it gets really tough to deal with unless you have a lot of fast moving chaff. I can tell you that I ended up having to charge one such unit in a game with a mainline unit of my own (ironguts as it happened) and 6D6 auto hits is no joke. Certainly if I ever see that setup again, the fanatics will be brought out as a priority but even that is a win because my strategy is being controlled by the other player. It's a nasty way of amplifying the damage potential of the fanatics and making one or more mainline units unapproachable until you get rid of the fanatics.

You got ogres, you had an incentive to charge, fine (I still thing the impact hits are not worth the fanatics, but that was your call. can't see why charging was mandatory anyway). But most units don't have impact hits. Why should the aforementioned swordmasters, black guards or chaos warriors care one bit if the orcs charge and not them? They'll still win the fight regardless, and, chaos aside, they also probably got superior shooting and waiting is a benefit to them. I'd also like to point out that we're not in 6th ed anymore, and even if our units are not expensive, we can't just take all those sacrificial units, plus the horde of fanatics, plus the pump wagons, plus the manglers, plus, plus. Seriously, if the OnG player has all that, it's a 2500pts game at least and you should have options out of such a trap, supporting units to flank the orcs, don't know, ogres are faster than orcs, they have yetis, they have cannibals, they have sabertusks, they got plenty options. If you don't, it means you horded up and, don't you know? Deathstars (gutstars? ) are unbeatable, remember, everybody at Warseer says so. So you aren't scared of a few fanatic hits, right?

[Lord Inquisitor]

It's not unbeatable by any means, it's just rough. As it happened I was running a gutstar, which got mullered by a pump wagon and a horde of squigs although the characters were able to pull through and I think they made it, bloody but unbowed through the game. I did have sabres (of course!) although the comp limited me to only 2. I'm getting a bit fuzzy on the details but one was trying to kill a pump wagon and the other got shot I think. I had my hands full trying to kill the mangler and stop the artillery. I can't remember why I was charging the ironguts through the fanatics, I remember I was deeply unhappy about it at the time but I didn't have any choice. It wasn't all bad but it was a knock down drag out fight. I think I came out with a soft win in the end but it was truly brutal on both sides. I suffered the hand of gork fanatic catapult that game too, which was able to throw fanatics through my entire army by that point. Urgh!

[xisor83]

well we're on the subject of fanatics can you guys clear something up for me please. When a fanatic hits a unit and bounces 1" past does it then hit another unit if its landing on one and so on etc etc. So in theory if a load of units are 1" apart the fanatic can hit them all or would it just do the damage to the first unit and then bounce to the end of the line?