Have the High Lords of Terra missed a trick?

[gitburna]

It may have been partially covered in previous replies, but surely the main reason that Cadians aren't chosen as Space Marine candidates is because they are not ideal astartes candidates? The IG is a massively diverse fighting force, but surely the type of guardsman represented by the Catachan Jungle Fighters more accurately represents an astartes candidate rather than the Cadians which are far more your well-disciplined professional soldier type, rather than outstanding physical specimens with a razor-sharp mind to boot?

I can't remember where i've seen it, but i'm sure it's mentioned in some piece of background for them that their main strength is their discipline organisation and professionalism when compared to other regiments/branches of the guard rather than them being better "individuals" per se

[MvS]

However, as is being discussed in the Nature or Nurture thread, it isn't really the physical prowess that's most important. The genetic alterations and organ additions that go into making Astartes make them into physical supermen. All that's required is a healthy candidate. What the Astartes seem to look for are people who are great warriors and survivors, because of the useful mental fortitude that goes with these states.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Demographics - Most Cadians make it to adulthood. Most Space Marine chapters like to recruit from "darwinian" (for want of a better term) societies, where there is a high childhood mortality rate, either due to warfare (of one description or another) or an extremely tough environment; this means that only the toughest survive, and the Marines take their pick of the very toughest of these elites.

There's really no evidence of this. Some chapters use methods like this, but not all.

Space Marine aspirants are going to be selected around 6-10 years old. Really too young for effect Darwinian selection unless it's a pretty bleak world, lol. Only the Space Wolves have a process like what you describe from amongst the most prominent chapters. And realistically, Space Wolf fluff doesn't always match up with the established material. Most certainly, Codex chapters (~80% or more of the total Marine Chapters out there) are going to benefit more from a selection process like the Ultramarines use.

[Veteran Sergeant]

However, as is being discussed in the Nature or Nurture thread, it isn't really the physical prowess that's most important. The genetic alterations and organ additions that go into making Astartes make them into physical supermen. All that's required is a healthy candidate. What the Astartes seem to look for are people who are great warriors and survivors because of the mental fortitude that goes with these states.

Most certainly. Building a Space Marine involves extensive biological modification. Being mentally adept, psychologically sound, and biologically compatible with the implant process is far more important than how strong/big the child is when they are taken in for consideration.

[Cthell]

There might also be an issue with the differing martial traditions; Cadians belong to a military culture where the smallest unit is the squad - they train as a squad, and pass-or-fail as a squad. Space marines generally acknowledge an individual marine as the smallest battlefield unit; after all, a single marine in the right place is capable of turning the tide of a small-to-medium sized battle all on their own. With the exception of Space Wolves, most marines don't keep a squad together from basic training to retirement/death; they will move individual marines from one squad to another as part of their training, and according to their individual aptitudes.

[El_Machinae]

An Astartes chapter simply wouldn't work on Cadia, because the whole purpose of the world is to deliver large numbers of able bodied men and women to a battle-ready status, with as little downtime as possible. Key points in italics. Aside from one of these points, the idea of an Astartes chapter would disrupt the entire planet's focus on the other three points.

And let's face it, if Cadia were to become a chapter world, this would end up by removing far more men (and women!!!!) from the Imperial Guard's recruitment pool than it's worth
.
The numbers of recruits required to produce a single Marine are just the tip of the iceberg. You've got to crew a whole fortress monastery with Chapter serfs that require specialized training (artificiers, menials, apothecarion assistants for instance). Then there's the whole matter of the Chapter fleet (2-3 battle barges, 6+ strike cruisers, plus frigates, escorts) that all swallow manpower by the thousands - a battle barge alone could set the Imperial Guard recruitment effort back by a handful of regiments. And even that's not the worst problem a Chapter's autonomy entails. The supply chains alone are probably a logistical nightmare. A Chapter would also need to establish separate production and maintenance facilities for their specialized vehicles. These also require a lot of mostly mortal labor, both specialized and unskilled (down to the level of just overseeing the 'shopping list' and hauling carts), and they have to divert that from Cadia's recruitment pool as well. And for what? In order to produce a Predator it probably takes as many people as to crew a whole Leman Russ regiment, with tanks brought off-world from a nearby forge-world.

All in all, it's far more efficient to have Cadia specialized in producing elite infantry at a fast rate and have the Munitorum's galactic resources provide for all other support needs (space transport, materials, logistics) than it is to establish and maintain a Chapter from the resources of a single world.

Quick personal estimation, I'd say that Cadia would be losing about a couple hundred regiments worth of men in exchange for a Space marine Chapter. Not exactly a good trade-off here...

This is mostly what I came to say. To provide the ability to properly recruit youth would disrupt too much of Cadia's infrastructure. Even with the resources the Imperium ships into the planet, Cadia cannot handle much more disruption. Camps that potentially killed teenagers en masse in order to weed out the weak would ruin the ability of those adults to contribute to the Cadian economy: and thus negate all that investment in getting the kids raised from infancy to teenage years.

And i think there is a reason why space marines recruit from feral/death-world so often: These planets are low-tech, low-population communities, rarely able to provide well equiped regiments/refined products in sufficient numbers. But when you settle a space marine chapter there they are able to provide something for the good of the imperium by means of few, but tough recruits who become space marines.

That's a really, really good point. The Imperium cannot use the planets for much, and conquering the hostile native life might be way too hard. But "recruiting" drives aren't all that hard to do.

[gitburna]

However, as is being discussed in the Nature or Nurture thread, it isn't really the physical prowess that's most important. The genetic alterations and organ additions that go into making Astartes make them into physical supermen. All that's required is a healthy candidate. What the Astartes seem to look for are people who are great warriors and survivors, because of the useful mental fortitude that goes with these states.

OK, but i'd be tempted to think then that its perhaps a combination of factors then.
a) Physically compatible
b) mentally compatible. We've talked about something like this in the Captain America thread, and it seems obvious that a "Skinny Steve" would never get into the Astartes training program despite being suitable "mentally"

I've just read Cadian Blood because its fresh in my mind but i would have said that out of the 300 or so characters in the story, only perhaps the sergeant of the kasrkin / stormtrooper squad and the Captain himself would appear (on the face of things) to tick the necessary boxes. You could say the same of the Penal Legion stories, only Kage would seem to have the necessary attributes to survive above and beyond the norm.

Dipping into the realms of speculation and untapped background here though, perhaps there's something in those violet eyes of the Cadians...

[Idaan]

OK, but i'd be tempted to think then that its perhaps a combination of factors then.
a) Physically compatible
b) mentally compatible. We've talked about something like this in the Captain America thread, and it seems obvious that a "Skinny Steve" would never get into the Astartes training program despite being suitable "mentally"

What about Blood Angels? All their recruits are sub-optimal physically.

[Lupe]

What about Blood Angels? All their recruits are sub-optimal physically.

I wouldn't say sub-optimal. Sure, they're malnourished and suffer from radiation poisoning, but there are individuals strong enough to survive Astartes selection procedures.

[Crazy Ivan]

How dangerous is it - on average - to live on Cadia, anyway? There's been only 13 Black Crusades in 10,000 years, and though I'm sure there's plenty of Chaos raiding about, I hardly think the planet's under siege constantly. As its environment is hardly hostile (earth-like, slightly cooler if I remember correctly - hostile environment training is done on other worlds in the Cadia system), it doesn't really breed tough cookies by default: military training is where it's at, and when you're in the Guard they're probably not just letting you go, even if the guy in the black powered armour asks really nicely ("what, again?"). I think one of the main reasons Cadia seems to send so many regiments away to other war zones is to give its troops more experience - sending a constant stream of survivors back to Cadia to generate a strong core of hardened veterans for the Whiteshields to learn from and look up to.

I also seem to remember the Cadian population being rather small: only 750,000,000, with about 71% under arms at any time (I assume the remainder are mainly Munitorum, Mechanicum and Ministorum personnel, besides the part of the female populace temporarily occupied with birthing and raising kids through their first couple of years). The Eye of Terror book might have further clues as well.

[Harwammer]

Space Marine aspirants are going to be selected around 6-10 years old. Really too young for effect Darwinian selection unless it's a pretty bleak world.

Is it too young? Sadly 1/10 death rate for under 5s isn't that uncommon in many real world countries. The early years are the most vulnerable, especially for the weak.

[Polaria]

High Lords of Terra are all human, not Astartes, so they don't feel exactly comfortable in giving Astartes any more power than they already have. And you can't really blame them for it, because Astartes make it very easy not to trust themselves by proving yet again and again that they can be corrupted, they can be turned against Imperium and they make damn badass enemies. I would not be surprised if High Lords of Terra purposefully kept some of the best stuff (whether its technology or people) out of greedy Astartes hands. Actually, looking at the record, they would be damn stupid if they didn't.