Baron Sathonyx - Hypex - Hellions

[toxic_wisdom]

Just curious if a reasonable solution was ever reached. Any link within the forum would help - but please, not to any discussions that are open ended. Almost completely forgot about this conflict of rules until a game recently.

The short of it is this, in case some may have missed earlier conversations (going back to when the dex was released). Hellions have Combat Drugs but the Baron does not. If the unit rolls and gets Hypex, what happens when the unit tries to run with the Baron attached to it ?

[Spetulhu]

They move at the speed of the slowest model, most likely.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

Remove the Baron. Add Hemi. You no how to handle this right? Why is the Baron different?
The run is calculated for the whole unit. If a component of the unit doesn't have this rule it is lost.
In contrast the battle abilities from drugs are not lost since at the time they will be used the ICs are considered different units.

[toxic_wisdom]

May have missed the point here. Hellions have combat drugs but the Baron does not. Models without CDs do not benefit from them, but there is nothing to indicate a unit loses the benefits when a non-cd IC joins the squad.

Hypex allows the unit (Hellions) to roll 3d6 for its run. The Baron by himself would only ever roll d6 for his run, but when he joins ?.. The slowest model rule cannot apply in this case since all modeks are able to move twelve inches. Its trying to determine if the joined unit rolls 3d6 or d6 when it runs - and why ?

Rolling 3d6 seems to allow the Baron to benefit from combat drugs, but rolling 1d6 means the Hellions have lost the benefit of the combat drugs (an Archon without CDs would not force a unit of joined Wyches to lose their +1 strength etc).

The short of it is this = how many dice are rolled ?

[Kurisu313]

Moving at the speed of the slowest doesn't only apply in the movement phase, does it? Or do you believe a Haemonculus attached to a beastmaster unit charges 12" in the assault phase?

When running, the Baron can only roll 1 dice. If you want, you can arguably roll two other dice for the Hellions, but the whole unit would be restricted to the Baron's roll, so it would be meaningless.

[toxic_wisdom]

The Baron isn't running though in this case, the unit of Hellions is running.

[DJ3]

The Baron isn't running though in this case, the unit of Hellions is running.

The unit of Hellions...which contains the Baron, who has no permission to roll 3d6 for a Run.

It's virtually the epitome of the "unit moves at the speed of the slowest model" rule. What do you think they're talking about? If you had a normal unit and you joined a Slow and Purposeful IC to them, would you try to claim they don't have to take the Difficult Terrain tests because the unit isn't Slow and Purposeful?

[Gwraith]

This has been clarified so many times it's getting painful. Units move at the speed of the slowest model in the unit. Its written almost exactly like that in the book. Therefore the answer is very simple. No, they dont run 3d6 unless all characters in the unit have combat drugs. This has never been a conflict of rules, if you read the book as written, not as interpreted by people who want to make their armies better, its quiet clear.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

The Baron isn't running though in this case, the unit of Hellions is running.

What do you even mean by this? If the Baron isn't in the unit, sure, they use their own movement, and he uses his own movement. But if he's in the unit, and the unit is running, the unit is restricted to the speed of its slowest model, which is him.

[toxic_wisdom]

I know exsctly how the slowest model rule works, and that is not what I am asking about. The unit of Hellions with Hypex gets to roll 3d6 for its run - and take the highest. Its a matter of whether or not the unit still rolls 3d6 when the Baron is attached.

If the unit does roll 3d6 then it leans towards the Baron bebefitting from Combat Drugs even though he does not have them.

If you say the unit can only roll 1d6 then it opens up a can of worms where a unit loses the effects of CDs when joined by an IS without CDs. Do Wyches lose the +1 attack if a joined Archon does not have combat drugs ?

[Nurgling Chieftain]

I know exsctly how the slowest model rule works...

Could you, like, explain it back to us? Because I really don't see where you're missing how it applies, here.

...and that is not what I am asking about.

You may not be asking about it, but so far we have nearly universal agreement that it's the answer to your question.

If the unit does roll 3d6 then it leans towards the Baron bebefitting from Combat Drugs even though he does not have them.

It is entirely possible for a model to benefit from combat drugs without having them, but that involves Pain Tokens, which are explicitly shared.

If you say the unit can only roll 1d6 then it opens up a can of worms where a unit loses the effects of CDs when joined by an IS without CDs. Do Wyches lose the +1 attack if a joined Archon does not have combat drugs ?

No, that doesn't follow at all. There is no rule that models in a unit strike with the lowest number of bonus attacks available to any of its members. There is a rule that they move at the slowest speed. It's that rule, not any special property of the drugs, that prevents the unit from getting its full movement.

[Kurisu313]

I said this before: You can roll 3D6 for the squad, as long as you nominate one dice to be the Baron's. The 3D6 is still in effect, but it's worthless, as the unit is bound to that one dice.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

toxic, no can of worms opened. When the Witches strike and the effect of the drugs like +1A or +1WS is going to take effect they are no longer considered to be in the same unit with the IC. Remember how ICs form their own unit in close combat?
The only debatabgle problem you would have is with strength tests (like the monoliths). Well the drugs take effect pre game. I really don't see what the problem is. The unit has a special rule giving it 3D6 pick the highest for running. They are joined by an IC. They now want to run. Why would you use that rule? The distanced is rolled per unit, and since not all members of the unit have the 3D6 rule you may not use it.
I personally prefer this interpretation than the slower model one. I still cant see how even though both rules tell you that you run D6 in the end, we can say that one D6 is less than the other without rolling.
Furthermore, by the "slowest model" interpretation, if the Baron had a rule saying he runs 2D6 pick the highest, the unit would run 2D6 also. That doesn't collaborate with the "ability lost when joining a unit" rule.

[IrishDelinquent]

Another way to think about this rule is by looking at Reaver Jetbikes. Reavers can't make use of the Hypex combat drug, as they are unable to run (being jetbikes). By your logic, adding a character with combat drugs (like an Archon, Succubus, etc) would allow the unit to run; after all, the character is running, not the unit. You cannot ignore restrictions caused by rules, unless it's stated otherwise. Nothing in the rules for Hypex state that a character without combat drugs joining the unit benefits from the enhanced run.

[toxic_wisdom]

Disregard...all good here ! The whole situation is perfectly clear.