The Empire and the Maltese Cross

[maltesefalcon205]

Hello all.

I was just wondering what the fluff is behind the Empire and the Maltese cross??

[WarbossKurgan]

This was discussed on the Empire forum some years ago (without coming to a conclusion!) http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum...p?topic=2179.0

I suspect its purely a design element to allude to the Holy Roman Empire, upon which the (Warhammer) Empire is loosely based.

[The bearded one]

I suspect its purely a design element to allude to the Holy Roman Empire, upon which the (Warhammer) Empire is loosely based.

loosely based?

[WarbossKurgan]

Yeah, the parts with mechanical horses and tanks and stuff didn't really feature as strongly...

[maltesefalcon205]

Awesome as I am currently putting together some Bretonnians and basing them "loosely" on the Knights of St John.

Just thought there might be a "conflict of interest" if I did

[Myrmidon616]

I give you Baron Odo d’Outremer:

[maltesefalcon205]

Sir, I want that model....

[Iverald]

@Maltesefalcon205 Maybe you could base them as some knightly order in the Border Principalities? IMHO, if you asked a Bretonnian noble to adopt a different and not unique coat of arms, he would look at you quizzically, before hitting you in the face with his gauntlet and challenging to fight to death.


As for the main question, the cross, in its most basic form, the two perpendicular lines, is extremely easy to write and could be conceivably developed by any early tribal society. As to how it evolved to the shape of Maltese Cross, is another thing altogether.

I would rather ask how on earth a laurel wreath would be a symbol of the Reiksguard, since there was no real equivalent of the Roman Empire based in Tilea. Oak wreaths would make much more sense being used in pagan rites, not to mention, being at least native to the Empire.

[maltesefalcon205]

@Iverald

I have gone over the fluff and my group off Knights who decided to set-up a outpost which flourished during the crusades to Araby and during have adopted a united uniform and coat of arms, going to throw some reason why latter on.

Also I'm surprised the Rieksguard doesn't use the German Iron Cross, which the Teutonic Knights use to use if I recall.

[Jim Bowen]

IMHO this all goes back to the early days of Warhammer the miniatures where rather generic and often looked a lot more like real world knights and foot soldiers even Chaos warriors lacked the horns and spikes for the most part, infact the biggest range of humans was the men at arms packs which were earl historical miniatures by the Perrys. I think it was about 1987 when the back ground to the Empire started to take shape due to Warhammer Fantasy Role play needing a distinctive setting rather than generic fantasy to help set it apart from D&D
I think the lack of more Germanic symbolism is due to the negative effects of it being used by the Nazis
GWs stuff can come across as fairly right wing to people unfamiliar with the back ground.

[Scalebug]

I would rather ask how on earth a laurel wreath would be a symbol of the Reiksguard, since there was no real equivalent of the Roman Empire based in Tilea. Oak wreaths would make much more sense being used in pagan rites, not to mention, being at least native to the Empire.

Heh... yeah, it is one of those things... in fact, when you start picking it apart, there should not really be, or there is a real coincidence that it is, a lot of things, that in our real world history is clearly dependent on there having been a romena empire in place... the archetypical ruins, should you want acropolis, coliseum and such style stuff in Tilea, is explained as the ruins of the first elven colonies, but other things... not so much...

But handwaving such things is hardly unique to warhammer, a lot of other fantasy settings does the same thing...


And while of course there is the real-world ones given above, wasn't there an in-universe explanation once, somewhere, of the cross representing three regions or tribes in what would become the empire, and the dwarfs of king whats-his-name, in the first alliance? Seem to remember something like that , could be fanon of course...

[Athelassan]

I have read somewhere that the (Maltese) "Imperial Cross" symbolises the Church of Sigmar with each of its arms representing a cardinal point on the compass. I can't remember exactly where but I will have a look through various books and try to find out. That's the only explanation for it I've ever seen.

I am sure, though, that they came up with the icon first and the explanation afterwards.

[The bearded one]

I am sure, though, that they came up with the icon first and the explanation afterwards.

Obviously, because someone came up with that icon a few centuries before them

[Skopey]

Well in the old 4th edition book a brets heraldry also symbolised the knights deeds in battle and questing. Eg; a griffon on their coat of arms would symbolise the slaying of a griffon, a keep or tower would symbolise that he took part in a siege. I believe a Cross of various kinds symbolised the dehorsing of an imperial knight in battle or joust. Just say they are from the borders of the empire and constantly patrol the mountains as a show of force to the empire that any invasion or venture into Bretonnia will not go unanswered.

[maltesefalcon205]

Well thanks guys, time to throw some Maltese Crosses on my Knights and the black and white uniform.

[baphomael]

loosely based?

Haha, yea. The Empire based on.... the Empire. Add in a few steampunk contraptions and demigryphs and my history free electives at uni would been several more shades of awesome

@Maltesefalcon205 Maybe you could base them as some knightly order in the Border Principalities? IMHO, if you asked a Bretonnian noble to adopt a different and not unique coat of arms, he would look at you quizzically, before hitting you in the face with his gauntlet and challenging to fight to death.


As for the main question, the cross, in its most basic form, the two perpendicular lines, is extremely easy to write and could be conceivably developed by any early tribal society. As to how it evolved to the shape of Maltese Cross, is another thing altogether.

I would rather ask how on earth a laurel wreath would be a symbol of the Reiksguard, since there was no real equivalent of the Roman Empire based in Tilea. Oak wreaths would make much more sense being used in pagan rites, not to mention, being at least native to the Empire.

Although, the warhammer world does have a Roman equivalent in Remas.

[Arnizipal]

Although, the warhammer world does have a Roman equivalent in Remas.

Indeed. According to old/fanmade background, the Remas empire stretched well into the boundries of the current Empire.

[Iverald]

I stand corrected. I did some research on Tilea prior to posting, but it turned out sorely inadequate.

So I guess the genesis of the Empire pretty much reflects ral world histroy (minus the early involvement in the affairs of the Catholic Church).

[Arnizipal]

(minus the early involvement in the affairs of the Catholic Church).

Cult of Sigmar?

[Artinam]

The Cult of Sigmar didn't originate from Remas?
Say do you have a link to that stretching into the Empire. I know Remas was a bit like the Roman Empire, but if I recall correctly its a mix of the Romans and the Greeks (the special Dogs of War character dressed in ancient Greeklike armour came from Remas IIRC).