Dark Eldar qualifying as a faction.

[Lord-Caerolion]

"978999.M41
Fleet Base Assailed
Dark Eldar raiders cripple the massive Imperial Navy moorings at Bakka, leaving many star systems vulnerable to attack".

[MvS]

This is actually my point. Al-Qaeda existed for more then 10 yeas prier to 9/11. Largely as they did after 9/11. Hell, 9/11 was not even al-Qaeda's first attack on the Twin Towers. It was not untill they actually did something meaningfull, did they have an impact on the world. The Dark Eldar, despite being far more lethal then modern al-Qaeda; Have not done anything that has impacted the galaxy, reguardless of their capabilities.

Perhaps I didn't state my point clearly enough. Dark Eldar raids where they depopulate Hiveworlds or cripple naval moorings (see below) or whatever else could all be parallels to 9/11, and they have done many more such attacks than al-Qaeda ever did or could, all in an environment where there is already much more direct pressure from multiple enemies on the Imperium than the USA has or ever could experience and hope to survive (even if we tweaked the threats for comparative scales). That is why the Dark Eldar are a major player in the setting and that is why they can, have and do fundamentally harm the Imperium and effect its policies.

This applies regardless of whether there are any stories to the effect in the imagery yet. The imagery is a setting with themes, and this setting is broader and deeper than what has been explored already by the various Studio and BLP writers. Some factors are universal and so can be extrapolated regardless of whether they are stated outright. They are all trends we can see through Strategic Studies and International Politics projected across to a setting of galactic empires, Rogue Traders, Chaos cults and space pirates instead of States, corrupt and/or money-grabbing multinational corporations, sub-State terrorist organisations and bandit militias. Hence my initial post on this topic

"978999.M41
Fleet Base Assailed
Dark Eldar raiders cripple the massive Imperial Navy moorings at Bakka, leaving many star systems vulnerable to attack".

Q.E.D.

[insectum7]

That's a flawed analogy.

If Guam had the ability to project their power to every nation on the planet, and were known to completely kill several minor nations and depopulate cities in whichever country they liked, then they would be considered a world power; a vast terrorist organisation threatening every nation. A definite player on the national stage.

Then, and only then, would Guam be an apt analogy for the Dark Eldar.

No but if Guam did that and wiped entire cities of the face of the map with little chance of defence or retaliation they would be.
If the yaren't then neitehr are Craftworld Eldar, Orks, Necrons or indeed anyone but the IoM and tyranids.

Both of these rebuttals appear use the quantity and devastation of DE raids as reason to make them a "player". As much can be made of world-stripping power, they're devastation still appears to be fractional when compared to Orks and Tyranids.

Eldargal, the difference between the DE and the races you list is as I have stated before: either quantity or manipulative intent/galactic aim.

Orks have no galactic ambition, but they are so numerous that they cannot be ignored. (or their galactic ambition is to keep it as one giant mosh pit)
Every other race has an end game, something they are striving to achieve with the galaxy. Even Tau see themselves as the rightful inheritors of the stars.

The threat the Dark Eldar pose to the Imperium is much, much greater than that of al-Qaeda in relation to the USA (al-Qaeda couldn't depopulate massive US cities at will, for instance, or engage the US military in conventional warfare), so it's fair to draw some parallels and suggest that the Dark Eldar would concern Imperial authorities and strategists at least as much as al-Qaeda did US authorities and strategists, and probably much, much more so (because of the scale and multiplicity of threats the Imperium is facing).

Unfortunately I have to completely disagree with this. Al-Queda effected massive change in US policy. Even if in the context of the Imperium the DE did possess a greater capacity for actual, physical damage, have any of their efforts have effected galactic-scale Imperial policy to change?

And unlike terrorist organizations, DE have no political goals when it comes to powers other than their own. What is the end-game for them? They don't have any. They mostly exist in a sort of parasitic sense. They don't even want for the Imperium to fall necessarily.

Actually, the most material way that I see DE affecting Imperial action at all is in sowing distrust between the Imperium and Craftworld Eldar. But even that is more of a side effect rather than an organized intent.

When I think "galactic player", I think a combination of goals+capability. Intent is important. "A man without a plan is not a man."

[Poseidal]

The Dark Eldar do have a plan. Their plan is to hunt for slaves in their natural habitat to take back to the city. They don't care for the 'territory' any more than you would care for a bear's or boar's territory. You keep going on about the end-goal but they've 'achieved' civilisation in their eyes, and they do in and take what they want in a way difficult to resist. If they want a hive's worth of slaves? They take them, and have done so plenty of times.

If you mean an overarching plan, no faction has one and the most unified forces very divided. The least divided are Tau, so if an overarching political goal is what qualifies as a major faction then only the Tau can really be considered one.

The factions in 40k aren't each single guys with one goal, they are divided groups of people banded together out of necessity or urge to pursue their own split goals. Just like the many Kabals in Commoragh, the different Space Marine chapters, Chaos Warbands, Ork clans and so on.

If you look at the Imperium itself, while some still pursue a 'crusade' for more worlds, there are others who's policy is to hold on to the power they have. This is before you get to more esoteric sub-factions like the Ecclesiastry or Inquisition.

[MvS]

Al-Queda effected massive change in US policy. Even if in the context of the Imperium the DE did possess a greater capacity for actual, physical damage, have any of their efforts have effected galactic-scale Imperial policy to change?

The Dark Eldar certainly do possess a greater capacity for causing physical damage (comparatively speaking) than al-Qaeda in that they can cause much more direct harm to the Imperium than bin Laden's franchise ever could to the USA.

My point is that regardless of whether GW writers have yet thought to come up with details of how much a threat the Dark Eldar are, just by looking at the nature of the setting and what we already know about the Dark Eldar they can't not effect Imperial policies. It seems illogical to suggest that there aren't whole departments within the Adeptus Terra and Inquisition constantly strategising how best to counter to the Dark Eldar threat without detrimentally impacting upon all the Imperium's other programs of maintenance, expansion and resistance towards their many other enemies. It seems illogical to suggest that the Imperium isn't drained and put onto an emergency footing every time they have to repopulate a world without letting it fall into alien / heretical / criminal hands and while still making the planet fulfill its necessary duties towards maintaining the wider Imperium.

I seem to remember a story in one of the previous 40K rulebook editions about a conclave of Inquisitors discussing the terrible threat of the migration of some non-civilised alien species (I forget which... the Ambul maybe, or perhaps the Hrud?) that must be countered. The threat they posed, though grave, was likely to be very small next to the existence of the unassailable expanse of the Dark City and its highly civilised, highly advanced and entirely predatory inhabitants.

And unlike terrorist organizations, DE have no political goals when it comes to powers other than their own. What is the end-game for them? They don't have any. They mostly exist in a sort of parasitic sense. They don't even want for the Imperium to fall necessarily.

Well let's unpack that a bit. As you mentioned in your post, the Orks are a threat because of their numbers. They don't really have any discernible political agenda (the odd divinely touched warboss notwithstanding), but the threat they pose as the quintessential 'barbarian-smash' doesn't require a political goal or an end game. There's always someone or something else to fight.

Also, the comparison between Dark Eldar and realworld terrorist organisation was made simply to counter the idea that the scale of a threat is dependent upon the numbers of the enemy. Numbers don't have to mean much if the enemy has a means of hitting you where it hurts that doesn't require vast numbers or massive Tyranid/Ork style battlefronts - although it's worth pointing out that the Dark Eldar do have huge numbers of extremely elite, well equipped and well supported troops to back themselves up as well.

On the point of political motivations, these are as hard to pin down as the term 'political' itself. Politics isn't simply about conquest and governance, although it is inevitably about control in some form or another. We could fight to defend ourselves, to conquer new territory for economic reasons (either out of necessity or simply because we wish to be even wealthier as a people), for retribution or to 'correct' something we regard as a wrongdoing or evil, to spread what we think is the 'best', most efficient or 'fairest' political ideology, to spread a religion or other form of more abstract ideology, because we hate our enemies and simply wish to see them destroyed, or any combination of these.

The Dark Eldar fight because they need millions of slaves. They cannot exist without other lifeforms to leech from. Yes they enjoy what they do and yes they like to pretend to themselves that they act solely on their hedonistic whims, but the fact remains that the entirety of the Dark Eldar civilisation is based upon preying on other species so that they may survive Slaanesh's endless leeching on their souls and vitality. We also know that the older a Dark Eldar becomes the more he/she needs to leech vitality/suffering (whatever) from other creatures, so there's the snowball effect to consider as well.

The needs of the Dark Eldar are not necessarily stable. As their civilisation grows and ages they will need ever more slaves and victims to support their population, and if they don't look outside the Dark City they will start to collapse as a civilisation because they will inevitably start to prey on themselves on a scale and in a way that they cannot sustain or recover from. So they have a profound and growing economic need (in its broadest sense) to capture whole populations in Realspace.

They also despise the lesser races. They have an ideological hatred towards pretty much every other civilisation in the galaxy. They believe themselves to be culturally, morally and intellectually superior to every other species - the rightful masters of the galaxy. Now this perceived lordship may not manifest itself in a desire to conquer and occupy the territories of the 'lesser' species, but then again they don't have to and are restricted from doing so anyway.

They can expand indefinitely within the Webway and if they ever try to exist for any great length of time outside the Webway they will be consumed all the more quickly by Slaanesh. So even if they want to conquer the Imperium and turn the Imperial Palace into a giant public Masturbatorium, they can't. Not ultimately. And this fact must rankle with them.

For all their power and perceived superiority, deep down they know that they are trapped within the Webway. They are not truly free to do whatever they please and the stinking lesser species of the galaxy can do things that they cannot without being consumed by the God Predator that they created. Cattle and vermin species have overtaken a galaxy that used to be theirs and although they can and do still slaughter these cattle and vermin as they please, the Dark Eldar can never take back those territories nor truly annihilate their enemies - not because they have no means to do so, but because if they wiped out all of these lesser species or tried to reclaim the territories they lost when the Eldar civilisation shattered, they themselves would also gradually die. The Dark Eldar are dependent upon the creatures they despise and regard as pitiful barbarians. The ultimate catch-22.

So their hatred and their desire and need to prey upon the Imperium (but not ultimately exterminate it) is monumental and exists for a very complex mix of fundamental social, economic, cultural and even spiritual pressures.

Actually, the most material way that I see DE affecting Imperial action at all is in sowing distrust between the Imperium and Craftworld Eldar. But even that is more of a side effect rather than an organized intent.

No indeed, the Dark Eldar can and do also harm to Imperium by stealing the populations of planets, destroying military materiel on a whim and spreading the terror throughout Imperial worlds that the Imperium cannot protect its citizens from these devilish raiders in the nights. Their very existence undermines the Imperium's claims to superiority, which in terms harms the Imperium's claims of unimpeachable sovereignty and the morale of Imperial citizens.

Also, the only reason the Dark Eldar don't prosecute wars of eradication on Imperial world after Imperial world is because, a) they don't need to in order to predate upon the Imperium in the manner most beneficial to their own interests, and, b) because attempting to destroy the Imperium, however appealing the notion might sometimes be, wouldn't ultimately serve their strategic interests.

When I think "galactic player", I think a combination of goals+capability. Intent is important. "A man without a plan is not a man."

Okay, but as I pointed out in my first post on this thread, that is a value judgement rather than an objective measure of fact. In other words, it's easy to find exceptions.

For instance, the Dark Eldar have the capability to carry off planetary populations without getting caught and without allowing even the possibility for pursuit or retribution. No other faction, except perhaps daemons and some Chaos warbands, have this ability.

Also, Orks, as you said, have no real plan, but they are still galactic players because of their numbers and belligerence.

The Dark Eldar's goal is to prey upon the Imperium (and every other civilisation and species) with absolute impunity, for as long as they wish and in any way they wish. They also feel it culturally necessary to teach, and enjoy teaching, the human barbarians an eternal lesson - that the Dark Eldar are superior and that humans are little more than rats scutting around in the ruins of a much older and greater empire. The Dark Eldar want humans to fear the night, because they love causing terror and also physically want and need to cause terror. These are all demonstrations of intent and goals.

[Stonerhino]

"978999.M41
Fleet Base Assailed
Dark Eldar raiders cripple the massive Imperial Navy moorings at Bakka, leaving many star systems vulnerable to attack".

And you think this is really a blip on the radar of the IoM??? That this small event somehow changes the 40k setting at all??? The Plague of Unbelief, is a deletable section of the 40k fluff and changes more then the loss of that naval base. Hell, the fleet that was lost assulting one craftworld is a bigger event.

Perhaps I didn't state my point clearly enough. Dark Eldar raids where they depopulate Hiveworlds or cripple naval moorings (see below) or whatever else could all be parallels to 9/11, and they have done many more such attacks than al-Qaeda ever did or could, all in an environment where there is already much more direct pressure from multiple enemies on the Imperium than the USA has or ever could experience and hope to survive (even if we tweaked the threats for comparative scales). That is why the Dark Eldar are a major player in the setting and that is why they can, have and do fundamentally harm the Imperium and effect its policies.

The problem that we are not seeing eye to eye on is the scale of these events. You equate them to 9/11 whereas I would equate them to. Say flying a cessna into a random grain silo in Nabraska.

And it's the fact that the IoM is facing so many threats that drops the importance of the DE attacks. Rather then elevate them. Think about it like this. You are the owner of an large company. What has more effect on your buisiness???

1) A few random employees quit with no notice given (DE claiming a worlds population, more then once)
2) A few sexual harassment cases (the damage the IoM does to itself)

Even when the DE do as much destruction as some other races. It never requires the IoM to expend the same resouces to counter/fix it.

I keep saying that the DE have a lot of potential to do alot of things. Their inaction or lack of desire to act keeps them from being a major player on a galactic level.

[Poseidal]

How many resources does it take to re-construct a Hive World? Are they actually re-constructable at all, considering the pre-date the Imperium? Remember these are the population hubs of the Imperium; a high proportion of people live on these worlds rather than on the Agri worlds. Crippling one of these worlds may also destroy the industry of a sector; how many sectors crippled does it take to qualify as a 'major' player?

The Orks and Necrons never really dented the Imperium to a large extent either. The big campaigns don't affect more than a handful of worlds really. The Armageddon campaigns are considered a big deal—that was one hive world and not many worlds, but apparently the hive world is an important world.

Here's another way of looking at it: The Eldar have been around for 65 million years and dominated a lot of that. The Imperium of Man has been around for barely 10 thousand. Therefore you could say the Imperium of Man is not a major player, as they haven't had the longevity or dominance the elder races have experienced. The background seems to be wanting to show the Imperium set up to be on the verge of collapse as well, so as a whole they it compare at all.

Which way do you want it in terms of scale? If the Dark Eldar threat isn't on a scale that makes them a major player, then the Imperium's period of dominance does not set it up to be a major player either.

[Lupe]

Just to put things into context, Armageddon was still a long way off from being completely rebuild by the time the Third War started, and the effects were being felt far outside its own sector. 50 years after a war it had won, and worlds many sectors away still suffered hardships because of Armageddon. Imagine how hard it would be to rebuild a hive that gets completely destroyed, and rebuilding efforts can't even count on anything left to salvage...

Now, the Dark Eldar are able to do exactly that, without encountering any meaningful resistance...

[stormblade]

Because they're going to stick around to make more trouble, just like orks?

[MvS]

The problem that we are not seeing eye to eye on is the scale of these events. You equate them to 9/11 whereas I would equate them to. Say flying a cessna into a random grain silo in Nabraska.

But that's a mistaken analogy. You're assuming that what happens on the micro scale has the same effects of the macro scale - or, in other words, that just because the Imperium is so vast it doesn't care when whole planetary populations vanish. Governance, strategic planning and (dare I say) human nature don't work that way.

To use your analogy, the equivalent of destroying one grain silo would perhaps be the equivalent of destroying one shipment of resources from one agri world to one sparsely populated region of the Imperium. The Dark Eldar may do that, but this isn't the sort of piracy we're discussing. The Dark Eldar destroying a whole planet would be the equivalent of destroying all the grain crops and granary stores in one whole region of Nebraska, along with everybody who lives and works in the nearest city. And doing it so quickly that the US authorities have no time to respond and don't know where to look for blame or recompense.

That would be alarming regardless of how large the USA is or how busy the government might be with other threats and problems (like foreign wars or whatever else). Can you imagine the unrest if such a thing were to happen but the US government just shrugged and said that there are more important things to think about? Normal, decent citizens would start to protest and worry if they might be next. Less stable citizens might join paranoid and conspiracy-based anti-government movements. Crazy citizens might just start strapping bombs to themselves or teaming up with their militia buddies and their legally acquired firearms to go postal against the uncaring and 'corrupt' authorities.

In the Imperium this would translate into riots, rebellions, insurrection and/or the growth of anti-Imperial cults and movements. All of which are things that the Imperium takes very seriously indeed.

And it's the fact that the IoM is facing so many threats that drops the importance of the DE attacks. Rather then elevate them. Think about it like this. You are the owner of an large company. What has more effect on your buisiness???

1) A few random employees quit with no notice given (DE claiming a worlds population, more then once)
2) A few sexual harassment cases (the damage the IoM does to itself)

But this analogy doesn't fit.

In simplest terms, if a State is expending masses of resources fighting active wars with multiple other powerful States, in a world also groaning under the pressure of uncontrolled and vicious piracy and bombings by non-State terrorist groups, if that State suddenly started having villages and towns within its borders essentially just vanish, while hideous screams for help echo across home radio channels and hundreds of abused and ripped up corpses are found at the scene, even if the massive wars its fighting elsewhere are taking up most of its resources it would not and could not simply ignore this new horrific threat on its own territory. Morale and the perception of a government being in control of its own territory (and able to protect its own citizens) are basic strategic considerations for any government. It doesn't matter how suppressive that government is. If it appears powerless and uncaring to protect its own citizens in their own territory from a graphically horrific threat, that government starts to become undone and/or the State itself starts to fall apart. History is replete with examples of this.

If we also say that the towns and cities that are being destroyed on the home territory also produce vital materiel (so food or munitions or manpower) that sustain the various regiments fighting in the many wars that are also underway, the effects of these weird attacks are increased exponentially, as is the response to them.

Even when the DE do as much destruction as some other races. It never requires the IoM to expend the same resouces to counter/fix it.

But it does! The problem here is that we are looking at the imagery of a wargame where we tend to judge scale by the numbers of troops, ships and titans listed as being involved and the numbers of planets that blow up. But that's just one aspect of the imagery. My point is that in real terms, repopulating entire planets and getting them to operate normally and supply resources to an Imperium that is constantly at war and constantly having its resources drained is a major consideration, but listing all the logistical and morale-busting processes involved in doing it aren't as exciting in a wargame rulebook as describing massive battles with explosions and spaceships.

We can use our 'common sense' and say that even if there aren't pages describing how difficult it was to get a planet repopulated and loyal, manufacturing and exporting material efficiently and to the scale required, without attracting other predatory forces to the highly vulnerable planet during this extremely lengthy process, doesn't mean it wouldn't be happening if the Imperium was a real place. And that is to say that the Imperium would very much take the Dark Eldar seriously and regard them as a major enemy, even though there are more urgent threats out there as well.

Threats aren't just a measure of "are they or aren't they?" Threats are measured by severity and urgency. So there can be a very severe threat that isn't right on the doorstep (and so isn't urgent), while there could be less of a threat comparatively speaking that is right in your face and so has to be dealt with even before the more severe but longer term threats. All the Imperium's enemies - all the factions that have a Codex to themselves - exist somewhere in that praxis of severity and urgency, and they also shift up and down quite freely, becoming more urgent and more severe; more urgent and less severe; less urgent and more severe and so on.

We can easily say that the reason the Imperium doesn't mobilise massive amounts of military resources to hit the Dark Eldar like it does the Orks is because the Dark Eldar don't fight like the Orks. By the time the Imperium mobilises a fleet the Dark Eldar have gone, so the apparent lack of effort isn't about a lack of concern, it's just pointless.

We could also say that the Imperium is so hard pressed by other threats that it often has no resources available in an area to send against the Dark Eldar (something the Dark Eldar might actually factor into their plans), but this isn't the same as saying the Dark Eldar have no effect on the policies or strategies of the Imperium or aren't considered a major threat by Imperial authorities.

Just because I'm trying to fight off three big dudes and their dog, doesn't mean I don't care about the man currently walking in and out of my house loading all my stuff into a van while also throwing rotten eggs at my baby daughter. I just don't have the opportunity to deal with the less urgent but equally important problem at that moment.

If I survive the attackers I'll certainly change my locks and do my best to secure my house better in the future, but just because I didn't turn my back on my attackers and charge the man stealing from my house and tormenting my baby is by no means a measure of how I perceive the importance of the events in relation to each other. This is the problem we face when discussing the Dark Eldar and Tau in comparison to the Orks or Tyranids.

I keep saying that the DE have a lot of potential to do alot of things. Their inaction or lack of desire to act keeps them from being a major player on a galactic level.

The Dark Eldar do pretty much whatever they like.

It isn't a lack of desire to act that prevents them from sending out fleets to ravage whole sectors. It's a lack of need. They would gain little of strategic interest by doing this sort of thing. Their way of waging war is far more effective to what they require and want to achieve. A bit like daemons they can't stay in Realspace for too long (although with the Dark Eldar it's because of the predation of Slaanesh), so their campaigns are time locked anyway. But still, they can pretty much take what they want without worrying about fighting campaigns for years on end, so they are already optimised for their form of predation.

It isn't a lack of ambition or power and nor is it a reflection of how little they interact with the civilisations in Realspace, or how little they are feared or taken seriously by the civilisations of Realspace.

If you imagine a very insular and unassailable Superpower that doesn't take part in the UN or any other international body (because it doesn't need to), doesn't interact politically or trade with other States (again because it doesn't need to), but then whenever it feels like it, it just sends overwhelming force to steal resources or populations with blinding speed, only to close its borders again and ignore everyone else. The fact that this State isn't involved in the world's politics, doesn't have treaties with anyone and doesn't care about the wars and scheming of any other State or government doesn't mean that this insular and predatory State isn't a world power.

If it can do what it wants (even if what it wants is very sporadic and seemingly random to other States) and cannot be destroyed or fundamentally threatened by other States or Superpowers, then it is to all intents and purposes a major player - albeit one that plays by a whole different set of rules.

That, to my mind, is an analogy for the Dark Eldar.

[LordLucan]

Just because I'm trying to fight off three big dudes and their dog, doesn't mean I don't care about the man currently walking in and out of my house loading all my stuff into a van while also throwing rotten eggs at my baby daughter. I just don't have the opportunity to deal with the less urgent but equally important problem at that moment.

This is a gloriously bizarre analogy! I love it!

[Athlan na Dyr]

And you think this is really a blip on the radar of the IoM??? That this small event somehow changes the 40k setting at all??? The Plague of Unbelief, is a deletable section of the 40k fluff and changes more then the loss of that naval base. Hell, the fleet that was lost assulting one craftworld is a bigger event.

Bakka is not some random sector fleet mooring in the **** end of nowhere.
It is a Segmentum mooring station, as in one of the five biggest fleet stations in the Imperium of Man.
This is where fleets are launched from when the **** hits the fan for the Ultramarines with vessels up to and including Emperor Class (or whatever the Dominus Astra was).
Should this have happened during Behemoth's attack there would be no Ultramarines and the Nids would have had a Primarch to feast on.
i.e. not an insignificant thing and certainly bigger than a 'sector fleet'.

As for them being a faction, the Dark Eldar number in the millions and affect most parts of the galaxy.
By comparison, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Black Templars affect their own tiny regions of space with ~1000 guys plus a cheer squad of chapter serfs. Would the Imperium care if they lost the Black Templars? I somehow doubt it.
On a galaxy scale, whilst things such as Tyranids and Orks are the sledgehammer bashing on the Imperium's military resources, both types of Eldar are more akin to the scalpel slowly bleeding the Imperium dry, either through stealing resources away, blowing stuff up or manipulating the more foolish into fighting better targets (see Malys or Armageddon). They are less overt, though still a major drain and credible threat to the Imperium of Man.

[Lupe]

and the Nids would have had a Primarch to feast on.

So that's where the Swarmlord came from, eh?

Anyway... the point is that the Imperium, for all its might and all its size, is so fragile and under so much pressure that it may best be compared to a Galaxy spanning house of cards, of all things. That is, enough small things go wrong in key places, that the whole thing just crumples into a mess of colossal proportions. That's why the Imperium has to react fast and prevent as much of the attacks directed against it. The problem is, in doing so, it stretches itself even thinner, becoming even more fragile in the process.

The Dark Eldar are in that sense a very, very real threat to the Imperium.
Most of the times, they just cause large damage without meeting significant resistance. However, for nearly every raid they mount, a response fleet will be dispatched, immobilized in the Warp for Emperor knows how long, only to find no enemy in sight, when they could have actually made a difference elsewhere.

If they do encounter resistance, there are two ways things can go bad for the Imperium:
- the response fleet is either ambushed and significantly crippled (even in case of a victory), if not outright destroyed
- the response fleet gets the jump on the Dark Eldar, but is then drawn in a lengthy pursuit of the raiders

Regardless of the outcome, Dark Eldar raids are a major threat. I don't think their goal is to specifically hurt the Imperium - for them, that would be destroying their main hunting grounds. In fact, in typical Eldar arrogance, I don't think they've ever studied the Imperium's weaknesses, except for local defenses before raids. However, their very modus operandi is actually hurting the Imperium a great deal, either by removing a card from the house here and there, or by creating other forms of tension, that will cause other cards, elsewhere, to fall.

[Stonerhino]

Just because I'm trying to fight off three big dudes and their dog, doesn't mean I don't care about the man currently walking in and out of my house loading all my stuff into a van while also throwing rotten eggs at my baby daughter. I just don't have the opportunity to deal with the less urgent but equally important problem at that moment.

You're still upping the scale of what the DE do. It would be more like:

Just because I'm trying to fight off three big dudes and their dog, doesn't mean I don't care about the man currently walking in and out of my house. Later to find out he made a sandwich, used the last of the ham, didn't clean up and stole the batteries out of the remote control.

The Dark Eldar do pretty much whatever they like.

It just happens that what they want to do has little effect on the galaxy.

[Poseidal]

You know the Dark Eldar impact is more than that. Even if the population proportion isn't that big (but these are Hive worlds in some cases, so they are big even for the Imperium) the political consequences if known about are far, far larger than that. It doesn't sit easy that populations can be towed away from the protection of the Imperium without them being able to form a proper defence. In many ways, that can be considered worse than an Ork threat, which you can shift resources for. With Dark Eldar, shifting resources to fend them of is far harder.

And crippling one of the 5 largest Space-ports the Imperium controls isn't a small feat. Neither is emptying a Hive world. If they are akin to the man stealing the batteries of your remote then Orks and all are like a man outside of your property shouting loudly but not doing much else. If clearing a Hive world is a small feat, the battles for Armageddon were just some unimportant skirmish.

[insectum7]

To use your analogy, the equivalent of destroying one grain silo would perhaps be the equivalent of destroying one shipment of resources from one agri world to one sparsely populated region of the Imperium. The Dark Eldar may do that, but this isn't the sort of piracy we're discussing. The Dark Eldar destroying a whole planet would be the equivalent of destroying all the grain crops and granary stores in one whole region of Nebraska, along with everybody who lives and works in the nearest city. And doing it so quickly that the US authorities have no time to respond and don't know where to look for blame or recompense.

Sense of scale is way off. The number of hive worlds in the Imperium is given at approximately 3.238 x 10^4, or 32,380. The loss of a world is a drop in the bucket. The Imperium notices, absolutely, but it ain't even close to a "region of Nebraska" and neighboring city.

But even if it was. . .

Can you imagine the unrest is such a thing were to happen but the US government just shrugged and said that there are more important things to think about? Normal, decent citizens would start to protest and worry if they might be next. Less stable citizens might join paranoid and conspiracy-based anti-government movements. Crazy citizens might just start strapping bombs to themselves or teaming up with their militia buddies and their legally acquired firearms to go postal against the uncaring and 'corrupt' authorities.

None of these effects come to pass, because the nation is already in a state of total war. The city of L.A. (Ultramar) along with the state of California is under attack by Tyranids. The entire country of the U.S. is embroiled in constant battle within it's own borders (Orks). The loss of a "region of Nebraska" does not cause nearly the uproar you claim, either because stories of alien invaders are either so prevalent, or the populace is ignorant. Remember that most humans don't even know that Eldar exist, let alone a "Dark Eldar". The psychological effect of a DE raid on your average citizen is nothing.

The Dark Eldar's goal is to prey upon the Imperium (and every other civilisation and species) with absolute impunity, for as long as they wish and in any way they wish. They also feel it culturally necessary to teach, and enjoy teaching, the human barbarians an eternal lesson - that the Dark Eldar are superior and that humans are little more than rats scutting around in the ruins of a much older and greater empire. The Dark Eldar want humans to fear the night, because they love causing terror and also physically want and need to cause terror. These are all demonstrations of intent and goals.

That's fine if that is their goal, but they appear to have little effect on the Imperium when compared to other races. And like I say above, and as stated in the rule book itself, most humans don't even know they exist. If their goal is to make the average human afraid of them, they are not succeeding.

Most of what the DE do is try to out do their neighbor in a realm which isn't realspace, because they can't even exist as a society in realspace.

[MvS]

You're still upping the scale of what the DE do.

No, I'm really not.

Just because I'm trying to fight off three big dudes and their dog, doesn't mean I don't care about the man currently walking in and out of my house. Later to find out he made a sandwich, used the last of the ham, didn't clean up and stole the batteries out of the remote control.

As I've said before, you're equating scale with value. Proportionately the Dark Eldar cause a lot more damage than this. Even to use your analogy though, I'd still have been burgled and the effect that might have on me and my family isn't simply a measure of what was stolen. How would you feel if you knew someone crept into your house once a month, finding sexual titillation by watching you and your family while you all sleep. The extent of the effect this creep has on your family won't necessarily be about physical damage. What if he doesn't steal your stuff, physically attack you or break anything? Your reaction and the lengths you go to in order to keep him out and protect your family will at least be based on the sense of insecurity you and your family have, not a profit and loss measure.

The analogy translates across to the Dark Eldar and the Imperium, although the Dark Eldar do a lot more damage comparatively.

It just happens that what they want to do has little effect on the galaxy.

Ah, we're at that point in the discussion are we? Okay well let's put it this way, if your appreciation of 40K depends on you viewing one or other faction in a very particular way regardless of discussion then more strength to you. It is after all just a hobby. However if you want to be involved in serious (but hopefully entertaining) discussion about how any aspects of the imagery might work in real terms then I would suggest you try to actually engage with and answer the points raised by those you're talking with, rather than simply doing the equivalent of saying "yeah but you're wrong".

Several people on this thread have highlighted both specific and general physical and psychological issues that would be involved in addressing the fallout from the Dark Eldar's predation on the Imperium, but you haven't really attempted to unpack and reply to them. If you can't or just don't want to then that's fine, but I think it's bad practice to just maintain an argument out of simple obstinacy.

For my part I would say that the question of the original poster, whether the Dark Eldar qualify as a faction or not, has been answered by many different people on this thread: of course they qualify as a faction in terms of their historical place in the setting, the scale of their civilisation and their contemporary capabilities. I also think there has been enough by way of detailed argument to back up this position - athough I would of course welcome any further detailed argument from the opposing position.

Sense of scale is way off. Thenumber of hive worlds in the Imperium is given at approximately 3.238x 10^4, or 32,380. The loss of a world is a drop in the bucket. The Imperiumnotices, absolutely, but it ain't even close to a "region ofNebraska" and neighboring city.

Okay, thanks for the response. I'm not going to get bogged down in the Nebraska analogy because I was using it only because Stone Rhino raised it. That said, looking directly at the problem, this isn't and has never been simply about numbers. Numbers are a consideration for the Imperium while fighting Tyranids and Orks.

We have no means of measuring the effect depopulating a Hiveworld or Hive City has on the Imperium because there is rarely enough detail provided. What we can say is that it is fair to suggest that the vast majority of worlds and populations in the Imperium are mono-tasked with keeping the Imperium running on a constant war-footing in the most difficult of circumstances imaginable.

If a machine has quadrillions of cogs that make it run, it's a mistake to suggest that losing one of those cogs won't have a big effect on the machine as a whole just because there are so many other cogs still in place.

The same can be said for any large and complex social economic system. When a Hiveworld or city is destroyed by the Dark Eldar everything that depends on that planet/city for whatever reason (materiel, resources, manpower, expertise, whatever) is also detrimentally effected. Then every other organisation / city / planet that relies on that second tier is also affected and so on and on like dominoes.

Yes there will be some redundancy built into the Imperium to help absorb losses like these, but it would be incorrect to suggest that all the Imperium does is notice such things but otherwise not care, suffer or develop specific policies because of it.

None of these effects come to pass, because the nation is already in a state of total war. The city of L.A. (Ultramar) along with the state ofCalifornia is under attack by Tyranids. The entire country of the U.S. is embroiled in constant battle within it's own borders (Orks). The loss of a"region of Nebraska" does not cause nearly the uproar you claim,either because stories of alien invaders are either so prevalent, or the populace is ignorant.

Well in that analogy, where the US homeland is under direct attack, the situation would indeed be more difficult, although using the Tyranids and Orks while also speaking about the USA creates an unreasonable mental image, because these sci-fi enemies are too extreme to use in the realworld analogy with any hope of comparative accuracy. Hence the reason I tried not to mix analogies and kept to realworld examples about the USSR, Nazi Germany and so on. The scales and reactions are easier to imagine because they have happened.

My analogy that you’ve adapted was that the wars are spread across the world and that the USA is projecting its armed forces across the globe to prosecute those wars, but that the problems at home are from criminals, terrorists, radical militias and cults. The reason I did this was an attempt to show the difference of scale between the Imperium and US. There are massive areas of the Imperium that are largely peaceful simply because of the scale of the Imperium. Also, the centre of the Imperium is excellently protected and reasonably secure from external threats (one or two frightening 'blips' notwithstanding). This, in my analogy, is the US heartland being relatively secure from obvious external threats but otherwise riven with internal threats, but while the whole industry and media of the US is still put over to prosecuting and reporting its foreign 'world wars'.

If we were to mix the abject fear in the USA at the height of the Cold War with the active war fighting of WWII against Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, we sort of have a smaller analogy for the state of the Imperium - massive wars, terrifying stalemates with other powers that could erupt into an even bigger war on top of the existing ones, all while people work endlessly to support the wars while fearing the unknown enemy both without and the traitor within. All anyone can hold onto are the promises and assurances that the government (or Imperium) will win and will protect its citizens. Then the entire population of a town in what is supposed to be deep within relatively 'safe' US territory vanishes, but with horrific torn up bodies left behind and recordings of that city's citizens and authorities begging for help.

In the paranoia and uncertainty of this combined Cold War & WWII such an event would cause terrible fear and uncertainty. How did it happen? Who is responsible? How could the government not prevent it? If the government can't prevent it happening once, what are their chances of stopping it happening again? Who might be next? Could be our own city? etc, etc, etc.

You remember the panic buying and fear every time the Bush Administration declared that the terrorism threat was higher, even though nothing else happened on US soil after 9/11? Imagine that was also happening during the Cold War. Imagine all the conspiracy theories linking the terrorism with the USSR that would likely develop. This is the sort of thing I'm talking about.

Remember that most humans don't even know that Eldar exist, let alone a"Dark Eldar". The psychological effect of a DE raid on your averagecitizen is nothing.

Not so. Citizens don't need to know who or what was behind the massacre and disappearance of however many billions of people in a Hive city or world.That's a large part of my point. All they need to know is that something powerful and frightening managed to reach around the protection of the Imperium without even slowing to kill or enslave billions of people, rich and poor, loyal and disloyal, 'mutant' and 'pure'.

That's the fear and that's the damage to morale.

Also, it's very likely that Imperial authorities would know that the attack was by the Dark Eldar. The Imperium has the expertise and resources to examine the evidence and figure this out. They are unlikely to just shrug, say "plenty more fish in the sea" and somehow repopulate the mind-bogglingly massive Hive city or world and return its industry to normal without any wider effects or worry.

That's fine if that is their goal, but they appear to have little effect on the Imperium when compared to other races.

Again, not so. You're overlooking the economic / political reasons for their behaviour. They don't need to do what Orks or Tyranids do in order to get what they want from the Imperium. It's not that they are trying their best to bring the Imperium down but aren't causing the same panic and death toll of the Tyranids. They aren't trying to bring down the Imperium at all. They are preying upon it with impunity, so they are just as successful in their goals as the Orks and Tyranids. Orks want to fight endlessly and they succeed in doing so. Tyranids want to consume and consume and they largely succeed in doing so. The Dark Eldar want to take what they choose from whatever target they please,and they tend to succeed in this too.

And like I say above, and as stated in the rule book itself, most humansdon't even know they exist. If their goal is to make the average human afraid of them, they are not succeeding.

You're being a bit too narrow. The Imperium knows they exist even if most of its citizens don't. The Imperium fears them and knows what they represent, even if its citizens don't. The Imperium has to figure out how to protect its people and resources from Dark Eldar raids, even if the people don't even know it’s a threat. The Imperium needs to worry about just how close to Terra the Dark Eldar can materialise if they want to, even if no ordinary citizen even knows the Dark Eldar exist.

On a side point, even if the ordinary people left behind or untouched by the Dark Eldar don't know about them, the billions of humans who have been captured by the Dark Eldar learn very well indeed the lesson these ancient and malevolent beings have to teach. And the Dark Eldar feed off every moment of this learning process.

Most of what the DE do is try to out do their neighbor in a realm whichisn't realspace, because they can't even exist as a society inrealspace.

Two points:

1) Ostensibly at least they have no desire or need to exist in Realspace when they are perfectly unassailable and powerful in their Webway world.

2) They can exist in Realspace for longer than daemons do, and daemons are a galactic threat. Also, I would hazard that more people in the setting know about the 'sadistic pointy-eared alien pirate slavers' than know about the reality of daemons - but granted that's just an assumption.

[Stonerhino]

No, I'm really not.

You are because you are making the DE an in your face faction that they are not.

As I've said before, you're equating scale with value. Proportionately the Dark Eldar cause a lot more damage than this. Even to use your analogy though, I'd still have been burgled and the effect that might have on me and my family isn't simply a measure of what was stolen. How would you feel if you knew someone crept into your house once a month, finding sexual titillation by watching you and your family while you all sleep. The extent of the effect this creep has on your family won't necessarily be about physical damage. What if he doesn't steal your stuff, physically attack you or break anything? Your reaction and the lengths you go to in order to keep him out and protect your family will at least be based on the sense of insecurity you and your family have, not a profit and loss measure.

Use this same example but imagine the effect if you never, I'll repeat "never" knew this person was there. Even if you hear about it happening a few towns away. Would you really change anything in your life/home security???

Before you try and justify it by saying something long the lines of "But their deeds are known". Remember that the only reference to the DE in the Imperial timeline in the new rule book, is the attack on Bakka. "The long Midnight" an event that apears in the Dark Eldar codex made it's way into the rulebook fluff as well. But those events are attributed to "Eldar Pirates" instead.

Not so. Citizens don't need to know who or what was behind the massacre and disappearance of however many billions of people in a Hive city or world.That's a large part of my point. All they need to know is that something powerful and frightening managed to reach around the protection ofthe Imperium without even slowing to kill or enslave billions of people, richand poor, loyal and disloyal, 'mutant' and 'pure'.

That's the fear and that's the damage to morale.

Also, it's very likely that Imperial authorities would know that the attack wasby the Dark Eldar. The Imperium has the expertise and resources to examine the evidence and figure this out. They are unlikely to just shrug, say "plenty more fish in the sea" and somehow repopulate the mind-bogglingly massive Hive city or world and return its industry to normal without any wider effects or worry.

Other then the =][= the imperial citizens are not going to be told anything happened. If no other reason then to keep these fears unknown. They might even be played up as a happy event, more room to succeed, better life, ect.

And when you play the "Great machine that is the IoM" card. Remember that in that scenario every world that does something matters equally. Hive Wolrds can't exist without agro worlds, ect. Which makes any event that affects the output of any world equal to the greatest success the DE have done. So a single Enslaver can cause the same damage to the IoM as the most successfull DE raids. The Tau matched the most Successfull DE raids with every world they take from the IoM, not to count their own military actions. A rogue planetary governor matches the best the DE do on a galactic scale.

That's not the makings of galactic player.

1) Ostensibly at least they have no desire or need to exist in Realspace when they are perfectly unassailable and powerful in their Webway world.

Even this point is not as absolute as it once was. With the "Increasing number of Necron fleets" in the webway and incidents like the Necrons on Damnos reconquring a crucial spar from the Eldar. The days of the "Unassailable masters of the Webway" are greatly diminished if not completely gone.

2) They can exist in Realspace for longer than daemons do, and daemons are a galactic threat.

The DE are a galactic threat. The argument is about the DE's impact and how it affects the setting. The fact that they really don't; other then them being in the setting. Makes them not a galactic player.

The DE really don't impact the galaxy like many other factions do.

[LordLucan]

The DE are a galactic threat. The argument is about the DE's impact and how it affects the setting. The fact that they really don't; other then them being in the setting. Makes them not a galactic player.

You're talking about the difference between these two bolded titles as if they are official definitions with agreed upon criteria. They aren't, and this is the fundamental problem of this thread and why it is snowballing into a collossal size. You have decided that there is a difference between a faction that can threaten the galaxy, and one that is a 'player' in the galaxy.

You cannot be persuaded, as you've already decided that no evidence we could possibly show you would justify the Dark Eldar qualifying as a true faction. Several times people have given different reasons why the dark Eldar are indeed a faction, as much as the Tau, orks and all the other factions that are not the Imperium are.

However, you consider yourself the arbiter of what the term 'galactic player' means, and thus dismiss any other claims out of hand. This has become an utterly futile discussion.

Frankly, I am surprised that this thread has gone on for so long. I suspect there is some sort of meta-reason for this; perhaps fans invested in the fluff of the non-Dark Eldar and Dark Eldar factions have been trying to trivialise and emphasise respectively 'their' faction against perceived slights. I don't know (I've mostly stayed around because of MvS's increasingly strange and interesting analogies for the 40K setting. I demand a DE story about a Kabal going to a world purely to throw eggs at people's children! ).

But the thread has run its course. It seems self-evident that the Dark Eldar are most definitely a faction (the consensus is that they are a galactic threat, which is a good enough qualification for being a faction for me at least). The position against this statement has descended into pedantic minutiae, based upon the precise, divergent meanings of threat and player, based upon criteria which have become so exactingly specific as to render them utterly useless in describing any faction other than the Imperium.

Thus, I consider the matter closed, at least on my end.

Good luck and good day.

[Tastyfish]

Sense of scale is way off. The number of hive worlds in the Imperium is given at approximately 3.238 x 10^4, or 32,380. The loss of a world is a drop in the bucket. The Imperium notices, absolutely, but it ain't even close to a "region of Nebraska" and neighboring city.

So if the Dark Eldar mount just one large attack a year - they've taken out a third of the Imperial major population centres - plus a lot of worlds rely very heavily on the Hive worlds, directly for military aid (so the loss of a Hiveworld will likely result in the loss of a subsector since you've taken out the main source of that area's military or weapons factories), high tech goods and likely almost everything else given how they sit at the centre of the Imperium's commercial web. Agriworlds probably can't easily ship to the worlds they are supplying as both they and the receiver lack the necessary dock facilities to tithe out the bulk goods they need. Without a Hiveworld (or Forgeworld, or other sufficiently major world), you're almost forced to choose between fuel or food because it takes that long to unload a bulk freighter using normal civilian docks, or because you can feed the mining world or the factory world with your single mass conveyor - but not both.

Bulk transport of goods from specialised worlds to central worlds (who need that sort of volume of everything), customised transport from central worlds back out to the civilised worlds. Taking out a Hiveworld isn't the same as a city, it's taking out a powerstation in a city. Direct deaths are minimal compared to the number of people who live there, but the consequences will be felt by millions of people.