Going after Bakka is a big deal. It's one of the biggest naval assets /shipyards in the entire Imperium.
Going after Bakka is a big deal. It's one of the biggest naval assets /shipyards in the entire Imperium.
Ah, but if Stonerhino and Insectum are to believed such things only matter if someone other than the Dark Eldar do it. They have this wonderful circular logic going on that basically amounts to:
So they can destroy Hive Worlds, but that only matters when Orks or Tyranids do it. They can destroy one of the five most important naval bases in the galaxy but that doesn't matter either, despite no other race being able to do so. Relatively minor kabals can trick Orks/Tyranids into attacking a Hive World as well and that doesn't matter. Etc. It's really become quite tedious, except for watching MvS run rings around them.I don't want Dark Eldar to be a Galactic Player. Therefore anything they do that shows them to be a Galactic Player does not make them a Galactic Player because it is he Dark Eldar doing it and they aren't a Galactic Player.
In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only British.
Actual (alleged) girl. Alpha Female.Originally Posted by Jes Goodwin
I must admit I do not care for the whole tricking thing, it used to be a CE thing which made sense as they have farseers and stuff but just saying that DE can do it as well seems to lessen the importance of CE diviners and chepans the eldar fluff overall.
"WE ARE THE ONLY SOURCE OF GOODNESS, SEVERE AND DRASTIC. THERE IS NO OTHER SOURCE OF HOPE THAN US. WE ARE AGONISINGLY ALONE."
beer and axes
How does the Dark Eldar being able to manipulate people make the Farseers cheaper? The Dark Eldar can manipulate others, true, but not to the extent or with the subtlety that the Craftworlders can. The Commorrites can only manipulate others to fulfil immediate to short-term goals with any precision, whereas the Farseers can expertly execute plots that determine events centuries in advance. The Dark Eldar have nothing on their influence.
To put it another way, the Dark Eldar can be the pebble that starts the avalanche, but the Craftworlders are the butterfly whose wings cause a hurricane on the other side of the world. The Dark Eldar are good, but without psykers, they cannot ever be that good.
Plus there's completely different desired outcomes - and very likely some serious problems that crop up later for the Dark Eldar who's who ethos is practically not being able to see the consequences of your actions (or largely not caring even if they do).
I never said they were better at it, just putting it out there. It seems as well they are sphees elves so they have to be crafty as well. Seems kind of unimagenative. Hell even imperium has some precognitive technics they should totaly steer tyranids into Dark eldar raiders or some such by the let's let everybody trick everybody into everything logic.
"WE ARE THE ONLY SOURCE OF GOODNESS, SEVERE AND DRASTIC. THERE IS NO OTHER SOURCE OF HOPE THAN US. WE ARE AGONISINGLY ALONE."
beer and axes
Yeah, and those Alpha Legion are also Crafty and make extensive use of trickery. Also orikan the diviner is quite good at this manipulating the future for his advantage malarkey.
Everybody would trick everybody else into fighting each other if they could, as it is sensible; it weakens your foes while keeping your forces relatively unscathed.
Also stormblade, the Imperium did also trick one of their main enemies into fighting each other. Remember when they diverted Leviathan into the orks of octavius? That's blatant manipulation right there.
Last edited by LordLucan; 07-07-2012 at 19:17.
Sorry, if I hook the topic (which isn't going anywhere since the beginning) a bit, but weren't the warp-storms caused by the growing and upcoming birth of Slaanesh? I thought that this was written somewhere. And when she got born, the storms calmed.
Last edited by Hendarion; 08-07-2012 at 06:20.
Eldar - Fear The Rainbow!
My Eldar Painting Log (including Revenant/Phantom/Super Heavies) or direct gallery - random selection of 16 years painting Eldar
Jes Goodwin once said he doesn't like the word "fluff". Thus I will call it "lore" instead.
So true, no matter what you can say it doesn't matter because it was the DE that did it. Sure they can take out nameless hive worlds and forge worlds, sure they get a blurp on a timeline about damaging a naval base, they can even trick others to do damage for them and they still remain a deletable faction in the fluff. Hell, even their own fluff gets credited to "Eldar pirates".
In the end you can't bring up anyway that the DE have affected the 40k setting.
The closest you can get is the creation of Slaanesh. To which the credit goes to the fallen Eldar Empire. And the DE are just refuges of that once great empire.
Close, iirc then the warp storms where the build up that would become Slaanesh. Then when Slaanesh was born there was kind of like an "Explosion" in the warp that cleared the storms and ripped open the Eye of Terror.
Many ways the Dark Eldar have changed the setting have been brought up, you just continue to dismiss them because its Dark Eldar doing the changing. All you have is dismissing whatever Dark Eldar do because when it boils down to it you have no actual argument. So Drk Eldar can destroy one of the Imperiums major naval bases, opening up whole sectors to attack, and that doesn't 'change the setting' because it is the Dark Eldar. But some Orks rampaging accross some random world make them a threat, and some Orks failing to destroy a hive world twice also changes the setting.
Also, the Dark Eldar ARE pre-Fall Eldar, they are the Eldar that retired to to the webway to continue their debauchery uninterrupted long before the Fall. After the Fall they continued much the same as usual. It was the Dark Eldar that caused the fall. Asdrubael Vect for one claims to have witnessed the Fall, whether or not that is true is another matter. The fact remains the Dark Eldar are what is left of pre-Fall Eldar civilization, it is the Craftworlders who are refugees.
This is brilliant, he is even admitting the complete illogic of his argument:
So Orks doing all those things = galactic player. Dark Eldar = no.. Why? Because it's Dark Eldar, and he refused to admit he is wrong.So true, no matter what you can say it doesn't matter because it was the DE that did it.
Last edited by eldargal; 08-07-2012 at 07:41.
In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only British.
Actual (alleged) girl. Alpha Female.
Yup, because agreeing with you seems to be the only way to pull you a little away from your "DE are the Leetest" ideals.Well that and I can make that staement because I have asked several times for you prove me wrong. And got replies that amount to "DE are the leetest, see how they do insignificant stuff and don't get attacked back".Who care if the battle of Armageddon was given a desent spread in the rulebook fluff. The DE got these blurps that nearly all are attributed to "Eldar pirates". Clearly they are equal in importance to the setting.
Last edited by Stonerhino; 08-07-2012 at 07:53.
It wasn't exactly tricking, more like baiting away- the tyranids didn't care, they got biomass either way.
It just seems that the ne DE dex was a case of 'oneupmenship' where they said no they aren't dying (and can respawn) they have the numbers for greater military operations but will also trick others into fighting their battles (even though they spend their time in another dimension so their data can't be all that fresh and they don't have any psykers).
As I said- unimagenative.
"WE ARE THE ONLY SOURCE OF GOODNESS, SEVERE AND DRASTIC. THERE IS NO OTHER SOURCE OF HOPE THAN US. WE ARE AGONISINGLY ALONE."
beer and axes
Man, I love the internet *continues to munch popcorn*
^This is why parts of GW may not like the internet^
I have a plog now! Now with actual painted models
Fair enough. I didn't find it unimaginative myself and I find the new Dark Eldar codex lore to be some of the best background fluff for 40K in recent years. But taste is not an objective thing.
I know in 5th ed fluff commoragh already existed as a major port. But I thought there was some mass influx of refugees when the Fall happened? But I've not read the codex in a while. iirc the exodites got out early, the craftworlders legged it as the fall happened and the DE fled to comorraggh (I am incapable of spelling that the same way twice).
re: business as usual, I imagine they like to think it is. Except they don't control large swathes of the galaxy anymore. They don't *need* to to sustain their culture, of course. What they do need, since the Fall, is a constant supply of Pain N' Suffering, basically a vital fuel source.
So they're existing in a somewhat more reduced, parasitical state, while indeed remaining probably as close to pre-fall culture as they can get away with. So they're the leftover of the culture that caused the Fall. I can't think of any one single galaxy-shaking thing the new comorrite power-base has done, BUT, I can't think of any one galaxy shaking thing the orks have done either, or the necrons since waking up so, *shrug*.
Last edited by Oots; 09-07-2012 at 12:37.
Oots: Commorragh was run by the Noble houses of the old Eldar Empire and the pleasure cults for millennia after the fall. It isn't until vect seizes power in M35 that the kabal system comes into effect and the term 'Dark Eldar' is adopted. In M32, Vect coins the phrase 'Eladrith Ynneas' which means 'Dark Eldar', and even then, that term only applied to his Cult of the Black Heart.
The ancient haemonculi are so very old, it is speculated they were the founding members of the Pleasure cults of the old empire.
Well, not all art is created equal, either.
The whole PAAAIN TORTUUUUURE SOOOOUUULLLSSS theme is moronically juvenile. It's cheap, lazy, shallow, unskilled storytelling to make your ancient race of complex, fey aliens obsessed with the same thrill that cruel children get from torturing the local cats. I mean, Dark Eldar are often described as unpredictable and mysterious, but they're pretty much the most predictable and boxed-in faction in the game.
Not sure what you're trying to achieve with taht post. I said I personally find the new DE lore to be interesting and diverse, while you consider it to be childish and unskilled storytelling. I've already said it is subjective. Are you trying to convert me into seeing the light and 'realising' the DE are rubbish?
I don't see how the dark eldar being compelled by slannesh to replenish their leeching souls through consuming the souls of others is particularly childish when compared with the motivations of other 40K factions.
I can childishly sum up other 40K factions just as easily. The point is that I find the details of commorragh (the dimensional oddities, the strange and exotic aliens infesting the place) and certain dark eldar factions fun to read and write about. Mandrakes are mysterious and creepy, the haemonculus and their various magical technologies are intriguing, and the dark eldar models look brilliant. I like the dark eldar aesthetic and their vampiric, dark fairy tale theme. I kind of enjoy the demented punk hellion sub-culture, the capricious and changeable moods of Sliscus and other Archons, I like the interesting parallels between the incubi and the aspect temples, and the rivalry therein. I enjoy how the term 'bread and circuses' is literally conflated with regards the wych temples. I find the parched a brilliant little touch to show how failure in the dark city can leave you a husk. There are cities of living shadow, sub-realms where nano-machines have turned the dark eldar there into living automatons. I find the little snippets of lore int he codex (like when the fashion trend of mutilating ones face became fashionable for a few weeks) slightly amusing.
Balerion, I simply do not agree with you at all. Power through pain is only one aspect of the Dark Eldar, and you are looking at a broad overview of the dark eldar. It's like saying 'tau are blue japanese, so unimaginative' or 'chaos are just angry bad guy space marines with horns' or 'orks are cocky barbarians'. Of course they seem cheap when you only consider them on a superficial level.
So, once more. Subjectively, I like the dark Eldar lore and think it is better than the recent codexes (aside form the necrons), you do not. This conversation will get nowhere.
Have you read the new codex? Because what you say was certainly true of the old one, it certainly is not true of the new one. Saying the Dark Eldar are predictable because they need souls and like torture is just a gross simplification now, as LordLucan succinctly points out above.
The whole PAAAIN TORTUUUUURE SOOOOUUULLLSSS theme is moronically juvenile. It's cheap, lazy, shallow, unskilled storytelling to make your ancient race of complex, fey aliens obsessed with the same thrill that cruel children get from torturing the local cats. I mean, Dark Eldar are often described as unpredictable and mysterious, but they're pretty much the most predictable and boxed-in faction in the game.
In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only British.
Actual (alleged) girl. Alpha Female.
Why did the Orks lose Armageddon? Space superiority.
Why did the Imperium win at Macragge? Space superiority.
Why are the Space Marines able to reach the myriad of galactic threats? Space superiority.
The Dark Eldar are the ONLY faction who have displayed the inclination and the ability to remove the Imperiums space superiority. Without access to space transport on a galactic scale the Imperium is finished. Unquestionably and undoubtedly so. We've seen the amount of resources sent to defend Armageddon: now remove all of the ones that are from offworld. Bit of a one sided fight, yes?
To suggest that the Imperium does not recognize a force that can potentially remove it's greatest strength at any time as a threat on a par, or even above, other factions is quite simply ludicrous.
One death is a tragedy. A million deaths is a statistic.
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