Dark Eldar qualifying as a faction.

[MvS]

I suppose it could be likened to a planet sized (though not shaped) city. Something that eclipses all but the most massive and populous Hiveworlds. Even then the Dark City works on and through more dimensions than any Hiveworld in Realspace and it also has more room to expand and contract.

I agree that it would be best to view the Dark City as many hundreds of cities that has grown so large that they've merged together (like the City of London and the City of Westminster, etc), added to which we have other cities that although many thousands of lightyears away from each other in one sense, they're also just a step away from each other through the various webway portals.

It that respect I suppose the Dark Eldar's realm could be regarded as an empire of sorts, with territories scattered far and wide, but with tributes flowing back to the metropole, the economic / political centre. It may not be that Vect could be described as an emperor in the way that we most often use that phrase, but then empires don't always need emperors, oddly enough. Vect is the paramount power in the Dark Eldar's civilisation and I doubt many would be stupid enough to deny him something were he to ask for it. Then again, I doubt he would be stupid enough to ask for something that he knew would likely destabilise the system he set up by causing a massive and unnecessary war amongst the Kabals.

Even so, I think the Dark City would be a bit more politically unstable than most Empires (which is saying something). The Dark Eldar are by orders of magnitude more selfish, conniving and ruthless than any human, and I imagine that their political interactions would leave even the most cynical and imperialistic Machiavellian plotter utterly horrified.

[Drasanil]

So true, no matter what you can say it doesn't matter because it was the DE that did it. Sure they can take out nameless hive worlds and forge worlds, sure they get a blurp on a timeline about damaging a naval base, they can even trick others to do damage for them and they still remain a deletable faction in the fluff.

As are:

-The Primarchs/Space Marines of all flavours: the Heresy existed before the Primarchs, and Marines were just enhanced psychos, Marines as a whole might get one codex at best.

-The Tau: completely insignificant in the scheme of things.

-The Tyranids: whose sole actual accomplishment is munching the Squats which changed nothing.

-The Orks: generic hooligans, even Armageddon really wouldn't change the ultimate chaos/imperium fight.

-The Necrons: they added absolutely nothing, but were rather shoe-horned into established fluff.

--- --- ---

The only things you really need are the Emperor/Imperium, Chaos and to a lesser extent the Eldar since they are responsible for Slaanesh, and you still largely have a pure 40k setting. So there you go, you have the 3 real 'galactic players' in 40k as your term it, everything else is pretty much deletable chaff. If your absurd standard is good enough for the Dark Eldar, surely it's good enough for the above mentioned no?

--- --- ---

EDIT: Also those talking about the DE not having an end game to move towards, are ignoring the fact that is what makes them unique. The DE have already achieved their end game. For all intents and purposes the galaxy is their play ground and there's little anyone anywhere can do to change it. Sure, they'd rather not have Slaanesh nibbling away at them, but with or with out Slaanesh the dark eldar would largely behave in a similar manner and continue with perhaps a slightly diminished sense of urgency, although considering the soul-sucking's rejuvenation effects that urgency likely wouldn't be all that diminished over all.

[ftayl5]

I whole-heartedly agree with Drasanil. If Dark Eldar don't qualify as a faction because their effect on the universe isn't considered significant then the same reasoning should be applied to Tyranids, Tau, Orks, Necrons and all of the individual Space Marine chapters including Grey Knights and the Sisters of Battle.
In fact really Xenos could be removed pretty much altogether, Chaos in its many forms has consistently been considered and named the most significant and powerful threat to the Imperium of Man, Xenos being a comparatively meagre annoyance. You could compare the Horus Heresy to the every single Tyranid invasion combined and the Heresy would be infinitely more significant. Tyranids are an insignificant bug on mans wind-shield compared to chaos.

So by the standards that you are placing on Dark Eldar, you must also remove most if not all Xenos and all of the unique space marine factions.
Why don't we do that? Because this is a fantasy world we indulge ourselves in and that would be incredibly boring.
Dark Eldar are a faction because they're (profanity of choice) evil piratical space elves.
Deal with it.

[comradeda]

Dark Eldar are a faction because they're (profanity of choice) evil piratical space elves.
Deal with it.

By becoming employed by GW and writing them out of the fluff?

[Stonerhino]

As are:

-The Primarchs/Space Marines of all flavours: the Heresy existed before the Primarchs, and Marines were just enhanced psychos, Marines as a whole might get one codex at best.

-The Tau: completely insignificant in the scheme of things.

-The Tyranids: whose sole actual accomplishment is munching the Squats which changed nothing.

-The Orks: generic hooligans, even Armageddon really wouldn't change the ultimate chaos/imperium fight.

-The Necrons: they added absolutely nothing, but were rather shoe-horned into established fluff.

Prove it. (Except the Tau)

Show how the fluff would not be forever changed by deleting any of those factions.

[Drasanil]

Show how the fluff would not be forever changed by deleting any of those factions.

I'm afraid the onus at this point is on you to prove me wrong. After all we are using your standards, you must first prove said groups actually contributed something meaningful to the fundemental 40k universe.

[Stonerhino]

You seriously want a complete list of everything that would change if you deleted Space Marines, Orks, Tyranids and Necrons??? Serious???

Just stick to the "Dark Eldar are the leetest" arguments.

[Scribe of Khorne]

There has gotta be some trolling going on in here.

What is 40k? Its the story of Humanity as its own worst enemy, as the current source for the most destructive of forces (Chaos) thats main goal is the destruction of the self.

Its not a Sci-Fi setting, its not a setting of progress and understanding like Star Trek, its not a story of a single beings rise, fall, and redemption (Star Wars 1-6) and its not a story of 2 opposing factions, with satellites/allies (Warcraft).

The (current) main thread? Emperor unifies humanity on Terra, leads his marines after creating his archangels, and a third of the host of heaven turns and is cast down. Obvious allusion is obvious.

We know that this happened due to various events, the rise of Psykers, the Birth of Slaanesh (allowing the Emperor to leave the Sol System) and so on.

So right now, at this point of events we have.

Imperium
+Space Marines
+Imperial Guard

Chaos
+CSM (Fallen Angels)
+Daemons

Eldar
+ Dark Eldar!! Why? Because it gives proof to the core tenant of the setting, the Birth of Slaanesh opened the door to the Great Crusade and that happened because the True Eldar, where bad folk, doing bad things and the Dark Eldar are those same beings, carrying on as they did before.

Obviously Dark Eldar are not a central figure, because the only central figures, really, are Imperium (often the Astartes because they are the Angels after all) and Chaos. Everyone after that is filler, but thats not to say they are unimportant to the core setting, or that they are not a threat if they choose to be.

[Drasanil]

You seriously want a complete list of everything that would change if you deleted Space Marines, Orks, Tyranids and Necrons??? Serious???

Yes.

Heresy existed before the Primarchs and before Marines are what they are now, so they can go with out too much fuss. 'Crons were shoe-horned in later and by extension obviously deletable, since the background never relied on them in the first place.

Orks never actually accomplished anything that would ultimately change the long term balance of power between the Imperium and Chaos. Neither have the nids who's sole actual accomplishment was wiping out the squats who were more or less insignificant any ways.

So go a head make that list, because ultimately none of those things have had much more impact on the Imperial/Chaos struggle which is the core of 40k. With or with out them the Imperium is in the exact same position it's just a matter of time.

[Scribe of Khorne]

Thats not really far, you should at least go by current canon, otherwise this entire thread is even more meaningless then it already is.

[Drasanil]

Thats not really far, you should at least go by current canon, otherwise this entire thread is even more meaningless then it already is.

It's perfectly fair in this context, I am after all simply using the logic he chose to apply to one race to all other races.

[Stonerhino]

Yes.

Heresy existed before the Primarchs and before Marines are what they are now, so they can go with out too much fuss. 'Crons were shoe-horned in later and by extension obviously deletable, since the background never relied on them in the first place.

Serious???

Space marines = Try to seperate the current Horus Heresy fluff from the setting. Without Space Marines 40k as we currently know it does not exist.

Orks/Tyranids = Are threats that suck up huge amounts of resouces that the IoM needs to keep expanding and deal with it's own internal struggles. Their removal allows the IoM to commit larger forces to both. Including the fight against Chaos.

Necrons = As said before no Necrons = no pylons on Cadia. Without them we might not even have a galaxy now. Not to mention the fluff behind the Admech may be dependant on their close proximity to a C'Tan.

The simple fact is that each of these factions since being created. Was writen into the fluff in a way that forever changed the 40k setting. The writers had the same chance with the DE and chose not to give them any fluff that redefined the setting. The non-existant Eldar Empire changed the setting more then the current Dark Eldar.

It's perfectly fair in this context, I am after all simply using the logic he chose to apply to one race to all other races.

Except that this has been addressed before. With the same result. Other factions make a difference to the setting and the DE simple are in it.

[ftayl5]

Orks/Tyranids = Are threats that suck up huge amounts of resouces that the IoM needs to keep expanding and deal with it's own internal struggles. Their removal allows the IoM to commit larger forces to both. Including the fight against Chaos.

The amount of resources dedicated to an opponent is not a measure of that opponents impact on you. The Tyranids and Orks can be fought and defeated, the Dark Eldar are much faster, infinitely more organized and if you don't kill them while they're raiding you then they'll almost definitely escape any counter attack and get away with half of the population of your planet before you realise it.

What have Orks really done that DE haven't what have Tau done that DE haven't?
Nothing.

Other factions make a difference to the setting and the DE simple are in it.

Firstly I disagree for reasons stated previously and by others (which you have chosen not to argue) and secondly so what? As Drasanil said they don't need to be making a difference they don't need to change anything because they've reached their goal already. They're the apex predators of the galaxy able to strike anywhere at any time without warning and take just about whatever they want from just about whoever they want.

[comradeda]

Orks/Tyranids = Are threats that suck up huge amounts of resouces that the IoM needs to keep expanding and deal with it's own internal struggles. Their removal allows the IoM to commit larger forces to both. Including the fight against Chaos.

Yes, but in the context of writing the fictional setting, those forces that the IoM spends combating orks and nids only exist to combat them. If you removed either race, you wouldn't explain what happened to all those armies and ships because you could just write them out as well. And when I say written out, I mean failed to be mentioned, such that they won't have ever existed.

No Necrons doesn't = no pylons on Cadia, as you could just as easily write "And some nameless Xenos built these pylons", or possibly "Some Eldar scientist who foresaw the fall built these pylons". It won't mean very much to the current political structure of the setting; It doesn't matter who built the pylons, all that matters is that for whatever reason, Chaos forces must (mostly) go through Cadia.

Likewise, without the Fall of the Eldar, you could simply write that the year 30K was about when a great man made his armies and began crusading. The warp storms surrounding Earth don't "need" to exist, they just disappear with the rest of the Eldar.

When you get down to it, most races in 40k aren't "necessary" to the setting. Chaos forces and their interaction with the Warp, and the Imperium are the 'core' of the setting, and the majority of fluff and fiction depict that particular conflict.

The majority of races in 40k follow various fantasy archetypes, of which Dark Elves are one. They're not necessarily the most popular, but they have a market. Also, they have fantastic looking miniatures.

[insectum7]

EDIT: Also those talking about the DE not having an end game to move towards, are ignoring the fact that is what makes them unique. The DE have already achieved their end game. For all intents and purposes the galaxy is their play ground and there's little anyone anywhere can do to change it.

Or you can look at it another way. They are trapped in the webway, stuck in their self destructive ways and cursed to a slow, slow death. Either they will destroy themselves or the Necrons will continue their expansion into the webway and begin to threaten Commoragh themselves.


About their effect on the setting, I'll reiterate:

The "Moorings at Bakka" incident is, if I'm not mistaken, the only mention of the DE during the 40K timeline in the BRB (pg.176). That's it.

No one is saying they don't deserve to exist as a faction. They do. Their just not as influential or powerful as some would make them out to be. They are one side of the remnants of a past power.

[eldargal]

Highly flawed logic. The sample size of literature written about Dark Eldar is lower than that of other races for a variety of reasons un-related to their in-universe status*. But when you look at what literature has been written about them it is clear they pose a significant threat to everyone else. Only a fraction of the timeline entries mention xenos at all anyway, the vast majority simply refer to events within the Imperium. It would be like trying to figure out contemporary global powers by reading a history of the United Kingdom.

*The army has been around less time than many others, it's initial inception was a failure and the race was largely ignored while it was re-worked into the revamped Dark Eldar we know and love since November 2010.

[Scribe of Khorne]

Serious???

Space marines = Try to seperate the current Horus Heresy fluff from the setting. Without Space Marines 40k as we currently know it does not exist.

Orks/Tyranids = Are threats that suck up huge amounts of resouces that the IoM needs to keep expanding and deal with it's own internal struggles. Their removal allows the IoM to commit larger forces to both. Including the fight against Chaos.

Necrons = As said before no Necrons = no pylons on Cadia. Without them we might not even have a galaxy now. Not to mention the fluff behind the Admech may be dependant on their close proximity to a C'Tan.

The simple fact is that each of these factions since being created. Was writen into the fluff in a way that forever changed the 40k setting. The writers had the same chance with the DE and chose not to give them any fluff that redefined the setting. The non-existant Eldar Empire changed the setting more then the current Dark Eldar.

Except that this has been addressed before. With the same result. Other factions make a difference to the setting and the DE simple are in it.

DE are linear descendants of the Eldar Empire, from a values/morality/cause and effect type perspective. It was they who blew away the warp storms by birthing slaanesh. Thats the only contribution they need to 'matter'.

[insectum7]

Highly flawed logic. The sample size of literature written about Dark Eldar is lower than that of other races for a variety of reasons un-related to their in-universe status*. But when you look at what literature has been written about them it is clear they pose a significant threat to everyone else. Only a fraction of the timeline entries mention xenos at all anyway, the vast majority simply refer to events within the Imperium. It would be like trying to figure out contemporary global powers by reading a history of the United Kingdom.

*The army has been around less time than many others, it's initial inception was a failure and the race was largely ignored while it was re-worked into the revamped Dark Eldar we know and love since November 2010.

It's hardly illogical. The claim is that the DE are an influential player, yet they don't appear to take any significant actions. What they do has very little effect in comparison to other powers. They are a parasitic operation that requires feeding on realspace resources in order to sustain themselves.

DE have been around longer than Necrons and Tau. They have a great historical tie-in, but their Craftworld kin are far more active in galactic affairs than the DE themselves are. The Craftworlders themselves pull some pretty wild stunts in the timeline, you should check it out.

As far as "the literature" about the DE goes, we both know the codexes bring a certain amount of hyperbolie, it's just part of the language of 40K. I don't believe I should have to mention a certain incident involving an Avatar and a Power Fist. The point is, you shouldn't read more into it than it's worth.

[The Dire Troll]

I think a problem here is people are looking at the dark eldar literature from the wrong perspective. with the spacemarines and orks you are told what they have done you are told all about Armagedon and lots of the crusades and what not, you dont have a readers perception on it because the writer has given you facts, their own perspective and there is no way navigating around this. On the other have the dark eldar were lots of the information is inferred, its a sleeker form of writing you would usually find in poetry or a good book. The writer with all intentions gives the dark eldar the power they just dont want to have to write the codex or novels going "And then they did this" it does not suit them as a race both fluffwise and the writing style is more befitting. I read a codex and dont see what they have done, but realistically what they could do, ,and the dark eldar can do what they like. Thats my take on the matter anyway.

[Lord Zarkov]

DE have been around longer than Necrons and Tau. They have a great historical tie-in, but their Craftworld kin are far more active in galactic affairs than the DE themselves are. The Craftworlders themselves pull some pretty wild stunts in the timeline, you should check it out.

Actually, Necrons have been around longer than DE. They were initially introduced in 2nd Ed, while DE didn't arrive until the start of 3rd.

Also, with regards to the pylons on Cadia, they have been around for ages before being attributed to the Necrons - there's always been a Cadian Gate, but the Necrons weren't given ownership of the pylons until their book was released towards the end of 3rd when the C'tan were shoehorned into everything imaginable.