Dark Eldar qualifying as a faction.

[Lord-Caerolion]

I actually see Dark Eldar society as relatively stable. Sure, there are the occasional bits of infighting, but you can't just go up and kill whoever you want to, because they're most likely a member of a Kabal, and if you mess with one member of a Kabal, you mess with all of them. You've either got to make sure noone can put the blame on you, or make sure that you wipe out every single one of them. To be fair, Low Commorragh is probably just as unstable as you describe, but once the Kabals start having noticable levels of power and influence, it becomes increasingly hard to simply kill off a member of another Kabal.

The same goes for internal struggles. Each Kabalite needs to balance trying to get ahead with not appearing too power-hungry, because they'll simply get killed off themselves, or most likely sent on a suicide mission/placed out of the way if their betters get wind of what they're planning/potentially planning. I prefer a more Machiavellian interpretation of the Dark Eldar, where there's still lots of backstabbing, it's just that most of the time it's political backstabbing. They aren't the Orks, where full-scale brawls break out because someone looked at someone funny, they're far too "civilised" for that.

[Polaria]

If we would qualify the factions according to their size and impact the first codices that should be removed are:

Black Templars (A single, although oversized one, and not even 1st founding one. No reason to have their own codex anyway.)

Space Wolves (Oversized first founding chapter, but with no successors. They have fame and nothing else.)

Grey Knights (Yeah, they are supposed to be the uber-marines and the last line of defence. But they are still under 1000 guys.)

Dark Angels (At least they have successors, but there is still maybe 20 000 total in all.)

Blood Angels (There are probably more of them than Dark Angels, but still not nearly enough to have galaxy-wide impact.)

[theJ]

Hm... Lexicanum states Black Templars have about 5000-6000 members total, which is considerably more than the Space Wolves have.
If we're going by the good Grey Knights background, rather than their latest codex, then there should be about 3000 of them, not 1000, which is also more than the Space Wolves have.

That said, "numbers" aren't really a good metric to use. Space Wolves and Black Templars are the most deserving of their own unique codices because they simply cannot be represented via the vanilla one - their organisation is far too different.
Grey Knights, too, used to have unique organisation(or were at least hinted to have - we never actually got to see it) until their latest codex scrapped this.
Blood Angels and Dark Angels are (imho) the most sensible to include in the vanilla 'dex. Why? Because Blood Angels ARE vanilla marines, 'cept they trade chapter tactics for red thirst, and have a special unit(Death Company), while the Dark Angels don't even have this - they have a lot of fame, some special names and really kickass background.

Before people start whining - no, I don't think they should be merged with the vanilla 'dex.

[madd0ct0r]

except that logic applies even more heavily to chaos space marine forces, lost and the damned traitor cultists, more unusual IG (armoured company, elysians, attilans,), Adeptus Mechanicus ect ect ect

[stormblade]

Iron Hands are also a non-codex chapter.

Remove everything but IG and Orks!

Also Admech should be a faction.

[Iron_Lord]

Hm... Lexicanum states Black Templars have about 5000-6000 members total, which is considerably more than the Space Wolves have.
If we're going by the good Grey Knights background, rather than their latest codex, then there should be about 3000 of them, not 1000, which is also more than the Space Wolves have.

What source had that figure in? I read through the Grey Knights trilogy and couldn't find it- nor was it in Codex: Daemonhunters. Was it in Index Astartes: Grey Knights, or in an even older source like one of the Realms of Chaos books?

[insectum7]

If we would qualify the factions according to their size and impact the first codices that should be removed are:

Black Templars (A single, although oversized one, and not even 1st founding one. No reason to have their own codex anyway.)

Somewhat off topic but just to point out: Of all marines the Black Templars is IMO the most legitimate codex after Ultramarines since it represents the crusading chapters, of which there are many. Crusading chapters are the most organizationally different chapters out there, and function in a completely different manner than the chapters stationed around a homeworld.



@Lord-Caerolion
That's quite true, I agree that among the Kabals the killing is not near as ehh. . . "whimsical" as ork killing, but I think it remains extremely common nonetheless. Kabals war against each other all the time, and within the Kabals themselves the power struggles are often lethal. Within the support structure of a Kabal resurrection is probably more common, since individual members are probably more well-off than those in the underground squalor. And it's probably true as well that more killing is done by proxy, or maybe through more subtle means. But my point was more that the cultural tendency for murder was extremely high, and that despite all the means of prolonging life, higher birth rates, resurrection and cloning, the Dark Eldar aren't exactly a dynamically expanding faction in the way that maybe the Tau are.

[Stonerhino]

Rather then looking at overall size. You should look at each factions potential for changing the setting. Any any race that can be a threat to anywhere in the galacy should be a playable faction. Even the Tau have the potential for affect regions of space far outside of their own limited size.

For example, if the Tau have been building up militarily behind the scenes and that last few expansions have just been tests. Then we could see the Tau launch a full fledged invasion into the IoM. Such an action would require the IoM to move resources from another area to stop the Tau. And such actions taken by the IoM could unbalance warzones and leave the IoM in a situation where, lets say a new Black Crusade can pass out of the Eye of Terror and endanger the IoM as a whole.

Or another way to put it the Tau are on the galactic stage enough that their actions can affect the galaxy as a whole.

The Dark Eldar are the same in that they are not really players in the greater picture. However their actions can affect areas of space beyond their punching weight.

Also the sub-marine codices for SW, BA, DA, BT and GK are important because they all have this same ability to affect the galaxy way beyond their numbers. A single craftworld might have the military might of all sub-marine dexs combined. But is not even close to being as big of galactic players. The simple fact that Lion El'Johnson might wake up and lead the IoM to new hights is reason enought to have DA as a playable faction. Not to mention that they have the Fallen and that secret, which could have lasting effects on the IoM if it ever truely came to light.

If anything 40K could do with more factions. Even adding factions as Tau allies is a great idea.

[khirsath]

Wasn't the original Tau codex a specific example of a small xenos empire? Which there are many, of all tech levels and sizes, scattered throughout the galaxy.

I do agree with Stonerhino's point about having a regional effect which could snowball into a more galactic change equalling a faction. I'll second that 40k needs more factions. First of these should be Admech, non-marine chaos & traitors, and more minor xenos

[Gaargod]

Dark Eldar have, if anything, a much bigger impact than a lot of races. Because of the Webway, they're capable of doing crazy amounts of damage to the Imperium, without really risking anything themselves. That's not to say they'd necessarily want to, as frankly they probably quite like the status quo - there's no threats focusing on the DE at the moment.

But consider it this way - let's say the Imperium is pretty damn stretched, as it is. Probably not an unreasonable assumption, considering how much they're scrambling to block Abaddon. Let's say they're at 95% of their full capacity, with literally only the last dregs in reserve (as in, fully uncommitted as opposed to in reserve in a specific area. This also doesn't count the really really reserves folk, like the guys guarding). Maybe that's a bit harsh, could go lower. Certainly though, the DE as a whole have the almost unique ability to, using the webway, (I refuse the current fluff of Necrons using the webway. It makes no goddamn sense, and IMHO they're still the only guys with true FTL) drop their forces behind the defenders and seriously hurt them from behind.

But they won't do that, because that implies a Tyranid-like unity of purpose and it would probably cost them a lot of resources. But, as they proved by their successful destruction of the major spaceport of Bactra (spelling?), they can cause insane amounts of damage. The loss of that spaceport will most likely mean the long-term loss of that entire system, probably the sector - they won't be able to build/repair ships to actually fend off the Dark Eldar, or anyone else who comes a-calling. Similarly, DE attacking agri-worlds means Hive-Worlds might start starving. The Dark Eldar can attack behind major lines, where the enemy's defences are few and weak, and basically do classic guerilla warfare. On a Galatic scale.

Basically, Stonerhino's point is correct, but if anything he underestimated its effect. The Black Crusades / Hive-fleets / Major Waaaghs are all blunt force attacks. Massive, sledgehammer-like attacks, but they can be blocked as they're seen from miles away. DE are the backstab attack to the kidneys, that you never expect until it's too late. They themselves might not even finish you off, but they'll make it a lot easier for said sledgehammers to do it.


But, there's one more problem to this. If it's deliberate (and I suspect it might be), I'm very impressed with Mr Kelly. The Dark Eldar do not want to destabilize the Imperium like this. Or they shouldn't want to, at least. Short of winning the whole damn jackpot and becoming masters of the galaxy, with whole worlds of slaves set to toil (which is somewhat far-fetched), this is probably the literal best scenario for them. Everyone seriously dislikes them, but they can't do anything to the Dark Eldar, who can just disappear back to the Dark City. The Imperium is huge enough that it has lots of relatively undefended areas in its middle, which are perfect for the DE to raid in order to gain their poor lickle slaves.
If the Imperium fell, you can say goodbye to that. Chaos, Nids and Orks would run rampant (unless the Necrons get their metallic behinds in gear), and finding easily raided worlds would be... difficult, to say the least. The Dark Eldar are, in a beautifully grimdark way, agents of their own destruction. And I love that.

[Stonerhino]

Certainly though, the DE as a whole have the almost unique ability to, using the webway, (I refuse the current fluff of Necrons using the webway. It makes no goddamn sense, and IMHO they're still the only guys with true FTL) drop their forces behind the defenders and seriously hurt them from behind.

That was a needed change to the Necrons. It gives a reason as to why the Old Ones just did not hide in the Webway and were forced into the fight. And the loss of the fastest form of travel was also needed to remove their "I win button". Ignoring fluff that actually makes the setting make more sence, is kind of ridiculous.

But they won't do that, because that implies a Tyranid-like unity of purpose and it would probably cost them a lot of resources. But, as they proved by their successful destruction of the major spaceport of Bactra (spelling?), they can cause insane amounts of damage. The loss of that spaceport will most likely mean the long-term loss of that entire system, probably the sector - they won't be able to build/repair ships to actually fend off the Dark Eldar, or anyone else who comes a-calling. Similarly, DE attacking agri-worlds means Hive-Worlds might start starving. The Dark Eldar can attack behind major lines, where the enemy's defences are few and weak, and basically do classic guerilla warfare. On a Galatic scale.

They are not doing galactic guerilla war. They raid and try to do things to boost they're own personal power. They are not galactic players. But their efforts as you pointed out can do more damage then they themselves actually did. If they where able to truely unite under a single ruler with no infighting and direct their efforts against the galaxy as a whole. Then they would be galactic players. But not be the DE we all know and love. Its something that you can't have both ways. Either they are the sneaky guys who will backstab anyone to gain "More" or they are a race trying to regain their old power.

Basically, Stonerhino's point is correct, but if anything he underestimated its effect. The Black Crusades / Hive-fleets / Major Waaaghs are all blunt force attacks. Massive, sledgehammer-like attacks, but they can be blocked as they're seen from miles away. DE are the backstab attack to the kidneys, that you never expect until it's too late. They themselves might not even finish you off, but they'll make it a lot easier for said sledgehammers to do it.

That was exactly my point. I just used the Tau because their existance is based on this fact.

[Leftenant Gashrog]

Crusading chapters are the most organizationally different chapters out there, and function in a completely different manner than the chapters stationed around a homeworld.

Since when? Imperial Fists are a crusading chapter and they are second to none in regards to codex adherence, Crimson Fists are pretty close too and they were a crusading chapter for 9,000 years. Fire Hawks.. Lamenters.. Star Phantoms.. all fleet based mostly codex. The FW write-up of the Marines Errant has them as a Crusading chapter rather (Vilamus is described as a geneseed repository rather than a feudal fief) rather close in MO to the Black Templars: the various chapter task forces operate independently for years with each gathering their own potential new recruits, the task forces often operate out of contact with each other which has at times resulted in the chapter far exceeding the nominal '1000 marine' limit. Yet even they still follow the codex in regards to company and squad structure. I'm not aware of GW having ever given any indication of other chapters following the Black Templars anarchic organisational structure.

[eldargal]

Necrons don't have access to the webway. They have access to a small and dwindling number of dolmen gates which grant limited access to the webway for a limited amount of time before the webway seals itself against it. The distinction is important.

Dark Eldar ARE galactic players, that is why they have a codex. They may not on the scale of the Imperium but that is irrelevent. Quality > quantity. The Dark Eldar sack entire Hive Worlds and once crippled the fleet base of an entire Segmentum (Bakka). That is they crippled the main naval base of an entire segmentum, a quarter of the Imperium. Were there attacks coordinated they would pose a serious threat to the Imperium, but they aren't, so they don't.

[Harwammer]

I disagree with the suggestion that a race needs to be a 'galatic player' to deserve a codex.

Further more I disagree that Dark Eldar have a codex on the basis of them being galactic players. There are 'galatic players' that don't have a codex so it can't be the reason DE have one.

[Stonerhino]

Necrons don't have access to the webway. They have access to a small and dwindling number of dolmen gates which grant limited access to the webway for a limited amount of time before the webway seals itself against it. The distinction is important.

The Necrons of Damnos then proceed to awaken their Dolman Gates and reconquer a crucial spar of the webway, driving out the Eldar who reclaimed its paths during the great sleep. With their webway access restored, raiding parties from Damnos reach across the Ultima Segmentum, leaving carage in their wake.

Which puts some of the hyperbole on page 8 into perspective. For example "So, Necrons entering the webway must reach their destination quikly, lest the network itself bring about their destruction". Meaning that they must move quikly but not fast enough to prevent the Necrons form driving the Eldar out. And "Can detect when its [the webway] environs have been breached by a Dolmen Gate and swiftly attemps to seal off the infected spur until the danger has passed". Which is fine except that the Necrons of Damnos use their spur to attack across the largest Segmentum. Meaning that "Sealing off an infected spur" might stop the Necrons from owning the webway but does little to really restrict their movement and ability to attack places in the webway.

Dark Eldar are no more galactic player then influenza which in all likelyhood kills more Imperial citizens annually. Yes they can attack in mass and strip a hive world of it's population or destroy a navel base. Which like I said makes them able to affect more then just what their actual actions can do. But untill they actually do something that affects the galaxy through their own action, they are not galactic players. Something like Vect desiding to restore the Eldar Empire.

[loveless]

But untill they actually do something that affects the galaxy through their own action, they are not galactic players. Something like Vect desiding to restore the Eldar Empire.

If you want a race that's trying to (re)establish an empire, you've got the Necron Dynasties and the Tau Empire.
Waves of destruction are delivered by Orks, Tyranids, and Chaos.
Then you have the Eldar in general - who are often obscure in their motives. Do Craftworlders seek salvation for themselves? For all Eldar? For the galaxy? Are Corsairs content to play space pirate, or do they seek grand adventure and heroics? Do Dark Eldar seek mastery of other races or just sport out of the strife of the galaxy?

Eldar in general aren't galactic players, IMO. They're stumbling blocks that divert and interfere with other races in an effort to serve themselves - if they do anything at all (Exodites don't do much on anything beyond a planetary scale).

[Stonerhino]

Craft worlders are out to preserve all things Eldar and create a new god to kill Slaanesh. Which is a galaxy changing event that they are actively trying to achieve.

[eldargal]

One group of Necrons utilising the Dolmen Gates for a series of lighting raids accross a segmentum does not equate to Necrons have unfettered access to the webway. Especially when the longer you use the dolmen gates the more likely they are to be sealed off entirely.

I think your definition of galactic player must be very strange. By definition a faction that can cripple the Imperium fleet base and destroy major population centres is a galactic player, just because they aren't out to conquer the galaxy doesn't change that. What I mean to say is Dark Eldar have the capacity to project their power accross the galaxy and are shown to do so frequently. That they do not focus on conquest or territorial expansions is irrelevent. The influence of the Dark Eldar can be felt everywhere and they are capable of inflicting massive damage with negligible retaliation.

Which puts some of the hyperbole on page 8 into perspective. For example "So, Necrons entering the webway must reach their destination quikly, lest the network itself bring about their destruction". Meaning that they must move quikly but not fast enough to prevent the Necrons form driving the Eldar out. And "Can detect when its [the webway] environs have been breached by a Dolmen Gate and swiftly attemps to seal off the infected spur until the danger has passed". Which is fine except that the Necrons of Damnos use their spur to attack across the largest Segmentum. Meaning that "Sealing off an infected spur" might stop the Necrons from owning the webway but does little to really restrict their movement and ability to attack places in the webway.

Dark Eldar are no more galactic player then influenza which in all likelyhood kills more Imperial citizens annually. Yes they can attack in mass and strip a hive world of it's population or destroy a navel base. Which like I said makes them able to affect more then just what their actual actions can do. But untill they actually do something that affects the galaxy through their own action, they are not galactic players. Something like Vect desiding to restore the Eldar Empire.

[Oots]

The influence of the Dark Eldar can be felt everywhere and they are capable of inflicting massive damage with negligible retaliation.

Which actually makes them kind of thematically boring and annoying. What do they have to lose? GW doesn't seem willing to extend the "dying race" trope to baddie elves.

That said, I find it interesting how the latest codex seems to up their threat level, whilst necrons got a bit demoted, ie fractured kingdoms, loss (or at least downgrade) of FTL. I'd say GW are trying to level the playing field between various antagonist factions, but nids are still inevitable swarm of inevitable world eating inevitabe defeat.

(which is also sort of boring. Nids should have something to lose too).

[eldargal]

They are only thematically boring and annoying if you look at them in a grossly superficial way. Also no more so than Necrons, Space Marines, Tau, Orks and Tyranids. The dying race trope needs to be retired full stop, or at least be made metaphorical rather than literal.