Dark Eldar qualifying as a faction.

[eldargal]

Yes her kabal, which was a very minor one (and probably still is) lacked the numbers to take on a hive world, but she was still able to inflict massive amounts of damage on it by using her intellect and resources efficiently (tricking Orks into smashing into the world first). That it is fickle is irrelevent, it (and any number of other sneaky tactics) still enables a minor kabal to punch far above its weight and this is in addition to other kabals being known to sack entire hive worlds on their own.

So you have major kabals stripping hive worlds of their entire population AND you have minor kabals using their cunning to cause massive damage as well.

That example is breathtakingly terrible and completely flawed. Comet=random event, Dark Eldar using Orks=deliberate and calculated event. If the freighter was able to harness the comet somehow, then yes they would have fended of a DE attack.

[stormblade]

That it is fickle is irrelevent, it (and any number of other sneaky tactics) still enables a minor kabal to punch far above its weight and this is in addition to other kabals being known to sack entire hive worlds on their own.

How is it irrelevent, I mean; are ork armies just lying around waiting to be manipulated into attacking specific hive worlds, do DE manipulators have to call dibs when they want to manipulate one of them or is there enough gullable warbosses just lying around for everybody to enact their plans? Calling it irrellevent seems grossly wrong as ones' ability to use the orks or any other underhanded technique presumes that there will be possibility to do so whenever neccesary.

That example is breathtakingly terrible and completely flawed. Comet=random event, Dark Eldar using Orks=deliberate and calculated event. If the freighter was able to harness the comet somehow, then yes they would have fended of a DE attack.

Granted it's a bit lacking, but even if we change the story so that they manipulated the comet somehow they would've still gotten lucky because:
1. Comet was there
2. Star was there
3. DE ship showed up just in that particular location
replace comet with waagh, star with the hive and location with unlikly oppurtunuty

It all seems like luck more than anything else. An impressive feat accomplished by burning up a glorious amount of handwaveium. Claiming that minor freighters fend of raiders with their comet steering skills would be incorrect. I see the mentioned case of DE succes as same.

(...) AND you have minor kabals using their cunning to cause massive damage as well.

Generalizing on a singular case is the worst kind of induction one can apply to any problem. It's the opposite of traditional logic.

I'm not saying that DE are not to be considared galactic player(whatever that is) I just see you example (this one) as a bad one and your claims of a number of things as being irrelevent as wrong.

[Stonerhino]

Stonerhino, you need to stop changing what you are arguing. NO ONE is arguing Dark Eldar 'shape the glaxy', we are just saying Dark Eldar are a major player in it.


'Dark Eldar aren't a major player because they can't damage the Imperium like Orks etc can!'
'Ok, they can but it doesn't matter because they don't have any actual goals!'
'Ok, they do but it doesn't matter because there aren't many of them!'
'Ok, there are but it doesn't matter because I say so!

Funny how my next post after you said:

I think your definition of galactic player must be very strange.

Was:

It should not be that hard to understand:

Galactic player = A race that makes moves on a galactic scale and has the means accomplish their goals for the galaxy.
Galactic threat = A race that has the ability to threaten the galactic players either through it's own actions or as a result of their action.

DE = a Galactic threat. They have the means to strike almost anywhere and their actions can effect the actual galactic players.

Being a player is about making plays. Not having the ability to make them and just not doing it.

Looks like the same idea to me.

It's also supports the idea that in the Lady Maly story. You can't let go of the amount of damage that was done. When it's the motivation that mattered. She knew of the STC before Vect got bored and only attacked and stole it for political gains. Meaning that without those gains she, in all likely hood would not have gone after it.

And you keep harping on the DE's ability to strip a human planet of it's populace. But this is how the DE view that same event.:

The loss of a human world's population was of little import to the star-spanning empire of man; humans bred like isects and were easily replaced.

So you can't even begin to claim that stripping a world's population means anything. When the very race you're trying to prop up knows that it doesn't even matter to the IoM. Let alone the galaxy as a whole.

You want so bad for the DE to really matter. But they don't, at least not when you only look at the major players in 40k. They are a cool race and deserve a codex but that doesn't mean that they matter more.

[insectum7]

The Eldar codex refers to Eldar as dwindling, there is no mention of Dark Eldar dwindling, indeed they are referred to as quite populous.

I ask again. How many?

Like I said, I'm genuinely curious as to how may DE there are. I'm also curious as to why you don't consider the DE to be part of the Eldar.

[madd0ct0r]

how many?

commorgoh compared to the greatest human hives is like a mountain compared to a termite mound.

Lets look at necromunda:

An attempted census of Trazior Hive four thousand years ago revealed an estimated population of a billion in the upper habitation levels alone - no further attempt has been made to count Necromunda's population in Trazior or any other of the several thousand hives on the planet.
The planet's capital is Hive Primus (also known as the Palatine), one of Necromunda's many hive cities. The hive, the largest on Necromunda, is enormous in size, reaching from the surface to some 10 miles into the air, and from surface level to roughly 2.8 miles into the ground (although only the first 1.3 miles are habitable by humans), and possesses a population greater than some worlds.

So, a billion in the upper level alone, in a hive smaller then hive Primus.

for simplicity, lets assume hives, termite mounds and mountains are all cone shaped.

volume of a cone = 1/3 * PI * r^2 * h

Let's assume Hive Trazior is only 9 miles high including basements. Let's further assume the spire area with pop billion is the top 4miles of this. Radius for 1 billion people pop density is 0.4886
Using that radius, similar triangles and conservatively assuming the same population density in the lower hive, total pop for Hive Tazior is: 11.4 Billion

Hive Primus would have pop of about: 22.5 Billion

Largest known termite mound hieght = 9 metres (30 ft) high in the case of large conical mounds constructed by some Macrotermes species in well-wooded areas in Africa

the absolute smallest a mountain can be is 300m (by comparison, Everest is 8848m).
Giving a height ratio of 33.3x, suggesting a minimum population of Commorogh as: 832 507 Billion

I could easily use a more sensible mountain size and get a MUCH bigger number (remember, the cone gets wider as it gets taller)

Height over base of at least 2,500 m (8,202 ft);
Height over base of 1,500 m (4,921 ft).–2,500 m (8,202 ft). with a slope greater than 2 degrees
Height over base of 1,000 m (3,281 ft).–1,500 m (4,921 ft). with a slope greater than 5 degrees
Local (radius 7,000 m (22,966 ft). elevation greater than 300 m (984 ft)., or 300 m (984 ft)–1,000 m (3,281 ft). if local (radius 7,000 m (22,966 ft). elevation is greater than 300 m (984 ft).

[eldargal]

Stonerhino, so you concede Dark Eldar are a galactic power then.. The threat/player split is completely arbitrary and irrelevent, to the Imperium they are a threat, to everyone else the Imperium is a galactic threat itself. I amtalking in terms of galactic power, not some silly artificial distinction between threat and player. There is only war (that's ctchy, they should totally use that), remember, everyone is a threat to everyone else.

The Dark Eldar view the humans as insects, of course they view the depopulation as nothing important in the same way we (well msot of us) view the slaughter of billions of aimals every year for our meat consumption to be irrelevent. You are still trying to argue that because Dark Eldar view the galaxy as their own personal farm they somehow are not a galactic power within it.

Also Lady Malys is not the only example of them using that tactic, another kabal lured tyranids to a human or Ork world to force the tyranids to create larger critters they could then capture for the arena.

Are the Dark Eldar out for galactic conquest? No. Do they matter? Yes. If they don't then neither do Space Marines, Orks, Craftworld Eldar, Tau or anyone else but the Imperium as a whole.

Insectum, we have no numbers given, but no I do not consider Dark Eldar to be the same as Craftworld Eldar. In the Craftworld Eldar book Eldar is used to refer to the Crafworlers primarily, Dark Eldar are barely mentioned in passing. We also have Jes Goodwin and Phil Kelly compare the kabals to the Craftworlds in size and say outright there are many more of them and that they breed more in the developer round table videos. You can find those on youtube.

madd0ctor, extremely fascinating, thank you.

[Max1mum]

suggesting a minimum population of Commorogh as: 832 507 Billion

I could easily use a more sensible mountain size and get a MUCH bigger number (remember, the cone gets wider as it gets taller)

just to satisfy my curiousity. What woudl happen if you would use everest ? And thanks a lot for that bit of reasoning. Makes me regret that i never took my love for numbers and math further then i had to;-).

How can a faction that has a subfaction that can steal suns be considered the lesser of any other faction?
How can a faction that has a subfaction that can clear out a hive city in a matter of days be considered the lesser of any other faction?

[madd0ct0r]

Everest gives you a rough upper bound of 21 422 155 626 Billion Dark Elder

If you use an average size termite mound of 3m instead of the top end 9m, the numbers go up exponential AGAIN. That first calculation was the bare minimum.

[Poseidal]

And you keep harping on the DE's ability to strip a human planet of it's populace. But this is how the DE view that same event.:
So you can't even begin to claim that stripping a world's population means anything. When the very race you're trying to prop up knows that it doesn't even matter to the IoM. Let alone the galaxy as a whole.

You want so bad for the DE to really matter. But they don't, at least not when you only look at the major players in 40k. They are a cool race and deserve a codex but that doesn't mean that they matter more.

What, pray tell, does matter?

In the scale of things, a single world isn't much compared to the whole Imperium, but the Imperium values it as it is an organisation based on a large collection of these things.

Taking a world has been deemed important, and while some are more important than others it's usually something like an Ork Waagh taking an imperial world that makes for campaigns and moves the Imperium to action. The Dark Eldar are capable and do capture the population of the world (which is important as a world that doesn't work isn't useful and a world you can't keep safe isn't yours). Their modus operandi isn't to roll along a whole set of worlds (it's much less linear), but only the Orks, Tau and Tyranids play like that against the Imperium. Necrons, CWE and Chaos can be a lot more unpredictable (although the latter may have more frequency near the eye and so on), and operate more similarly to the Dark Eldar.

Also, there is a statement about sci-fi settings (but can be applied to others):

The defining factor of whether a given planet was part of an empire or not is whether the time delay between the start of the rebellion and the arrival of the imperial punishment fleet is longer than the time required for the rebellious planet to manufacture enough defenses to take care of the punishment fleet.

In other words: if you cannot hold on to the planet, it ain't yours.

Since the Imperium seems to have problems holding onto many of it's peripheral worlds, maybe it's not as extensive as is commonly thought and the real Imperium is a small amount of hard-to-capture core worlds, and thus the Imperium is not a large player either (maybe only a little above Craftworld Eldar, who's main holdings are a small amount of hard-to-capture craftworlds). As this is clearly absurd, it is just as absurd to regard the Dark Eldar as such who hold on to their own extensive holdings very securely and can take whatever they want (for the most part) from most of the galaxy whenever they want.

As for the history argument the faction has not been in the setting for that long in comparison to others; it's fluff (really only shown properly in the latest DE Codex compared with the old pamphlet) has not had the time to ingrain like the old 1st & 2nd edition stuff.

[stormblade]

how many?
commorgoh compared to the greatest human hives is like a mountain compared to a termite mound.
(...)
Giving a height ratio of 33.3x, suggesting a minimum population of Commorogh as: 832 507 Billion

Why assume that population density is equal in both? Comparing termite mounds with mountains seems to indicate more towards size (i.e. volume) comparisons than number of inhabitans. If the opposite were true the quote would imply that somebody bothered to calculate if more termites live in a termite mound or on a mountain which is a question similar to whether it's colder during nighttime or outside.

In other words: if you cannot hold on to the planet, it ain't yours.

Also wrong, a planet is someones' property until it gets taken. So if one is unable to hold on to a planet then the planet still belongs to him until it's taken away. Wasn't Imperiums' goal on Medusa V to hold on as long as they can solely to keep the production going?- if so that would indicate that IoM has use of planets as long as they get tithes no matter for the longitivity prospect of the planet.

[Menthak]

I've just come back to read through this entire thread after starting this, yet I feel like i'm no closer to understanding it >.< they're numerable, powerful and evil, but the Tech Priests of mars are powerfull they have no codex and thus aren't a faction, the Enslavers are Evil but they have no codex and thus aren't a faction and Hive world populations have no codex and aren't a faction, I meant specifically what makes the Dark Eldar a faction that GW decided was worth marketing as well as fluff wise.

[eldargal]

Well the Adeptus Mechanicus is a faction, for most of the argument above they are included, it is assumed, as part of the Imperium.

[Harwammer]

Well the Adeptus Mechanicus is a faction, for most of the argument above they are included, it is assumed, as part of the Imperium.

To elaborate on this not only are the AM nominally part of the Imperium, thus represented that way, they also have their own forces represented in the 40k table top game (I believe the Titan Legions fall under the AM, rather than the IoM proper). This isn't to say the AM doesn't have further forces seperate to the rest of the IoM that aren't represented in game. The Eye of Terror codex mentions the AM having (amongst other things) at least 87 regminets of Skitarii at the disposition of 'The Blessed Forces of the God-Emperor of Mankind' at the ouset of the 13th Black Crusade.

Now, I've not done much reading up on the Skitarii, but I'm under the impression they are a militant division of the AM separate to the Titan Legions.

[Mirbeau]

I've just come back to read through this entire thread after starting this, yet I feel like i'm no closer to understanding it >.< they're numerable, powerful and evil, but the Tech Priests of mars are powerfull they have no codex and thus aren't a faction, the Enslavers are Evil but they have no codex and thus aren't a faction and Hive world populations have no codex and aren't a faction, I meant specifically what makes the Dark Eldar a faction that GW decided was worth marketing as well as fluff wise.

Scantily clad (amoral) elves.

Which have been a popular archetype in various fantasy universes for an awfully long time, so are/were more likely to be profitable. They're turned them into something rather ace, glad they're about.

[LordLucan]

I've just come back to read through this entire thread after starting this, yet I feel like i'm no closer to understanding it >.< they're numerable, powerful and evil, but the Tech Priests of mars are powerfull they have no codex and thus aren't a faction, the Enslavers are Evil but they have no codex and thus aren't a faction and Hive world populations have no codex and aren't a faction, I meant specifically what makes the Dark Eldar a faction that GW decided was worth marketing as well as fluff wise.

I see, so you actual question is 'why aren't the Adeptus Mechanicus a playable faction?'

The Adeptus Mechanicus are a faciton in the background. I have no idea why they have no codex, but I think they should.

Hive world populations are par tof the Imperium and are also confined to a single planet generally, unless the Imperium recruits them as IG for a war or something, in which case they'd become the faction known as 'Imperial guard'.

Enslavers aren't a faction because they are a scattered menace nowadays, like the psychueneun(sp?). Incidentally, those warp wasps appear in 6th Edition if the WD is to be believed, as a dangerous terrain complicaiton.

As for why GW thought the Dark Eldar were marketable; I cannot really answer that question. Why does GW release any new faction? They want to hook folks in with new, interesting races that play/look distinct and different from anything else they make.*


*(Different marine codexes excepted of course )

[Lupe]

The Adeptus Mechanicus are a faciton in the background. I have no idea why they have no codex, but I think they should.

Well, the Imperial side of the game was getting a bit too crowded, with all the Somewhat Diverging Marine Chapter Codices...

[Stonerhino]

The Dark Eldar view the humans as insects, of course they view the depopulation as nothing important in the same way we (well msot of us) view the slaughter of billions of aimals every year for our meat consumption to be irrelevent. You are still trying to argue that because Dark Eldar view the galaxy as their own personal farm they somehow are not a galactic power within it.

Wow, show you a quote of the DE saying that what you consider to be huge displays of power is meaningless. Not just to the DE but to the target of those displays. And that's what you got out of it. And no I'm arguing that the DE don't do anything that really affects the galaxy and that's why they are not a "Galactic player". The fact that they can attack amost anywhere in the galaxy makes them a galactic power. Just one that does not do anything. That's why I said they are a galactic threat.

What, pray tell, does matter?

Imagine this. The DE get "Squated". Besides the loss of the DE how does that event change the 40K setting???

As for the history argument the faction has not been in the setting for that long in comparison to others; it's fluff (really only shown properly in the latest DE Codex compared with the old pamphlet) has not had the time to ingrain like the old 1st & 2nd edition stuff.

Not true, the Necrons are about on par with the DE as far as being writen about and they cannot be removed from the setting without huge changes to the existing stuff. Most of which comes from their 3rd and 5th ed codices.

@madd0ct0r: Good work. I like seeing hyperbole taken to the extremes. It puts a perspective on how wild you can range things. If that is not just an exaggeration then the DE population = between 832,507 Billion and 21,422,155,626 Billion. The closest I can get to real-ish number for the IoM is 20,777,166 billion and that only works if Minea (page 115 BRB) is an average hive world; 4,986,520 would be the population of just the hive worlds.

An interesting note, 24% of the population of the IoM would live on 3.2% of the total planets the IoM controls.

[eldargal]

1) The destruction of a Hive World changes the galaxy, the desturction of one of the four most major Imperial naval bases changes the galaxy etc. In other words, you are objectively wrong. If you somehow doubt the impact the destruction of a major naval base could have I suggest you google Pearl Harbour.

2) No Dark Eldar would reduce the number of playable factions in the game by one, it would reduce the amount of piracy in the galaxy signficantly, it woudl be the removal of one of the most technological advances races from the galaxy etc etc. Again, objectively wrong.

3) The same can be said of Dark Eldar. Dark Eldar represent the Eldar psyche that led to the Fall, apart from some changes (the atrophy of heir psychic ability through necessity) they are the pre-Fall Eldar culture. To remove them from the setting would have a huge impact on the history of the Eldar race, and the galaxy, as it was the Birth of Slaahnesh that cleared the warp storms that ultiamtely enabled the Great Crusade.

To put it it another way, if Orks were removed how would the setting change? Armageddon wouldn't happen, so what, just a hive world, if the DE destroying some doesn't matter then the same applies to Orks. They had no major impact on the development of any of the other major factions, they are just there, they just fight. Remove them and nothing changes.

You are grasping at straws even more than ever.

[insectum7]

Insectum, we have no numbers given, but no I do not consider Dark Eldar to be the same as Craftworld Eldar. In the Craftworld Eldar book Eldar is used to refer to the Crafworlers primarily, Dark Eldar are barely mentioned in passing. We also have Jes Goodwin and Phil Kelly compare the kabals to the Craftworlds in size and say outright there are many more of them and that they breed more in the developer round table videos. You can find those on youtube.

Those were quite interesting, and there were a couple important points as well.

1: Commoragh, despite being huge, is not entirely DE at all, but basically runs on slaves of other races, apparently a pretty large proportion. "Hybrids" are not uncommon even.

2: The notion that a Kabal is as large as a Craftworld is only partially true. They mention that a major Kabal might be the size of a minor Craftworld. Only the big ones though.

3: The Kabals make up a small portion of the population, but only Kabals go on realspace raids.

4: Only the most elite members of society have access to cloning.

5: Yes, they are constantly killing each other.

6: They leave Commoragh only rarely. "They don't come out very much" - "mainly so they don't spend that much time in the material universe, the webway stops them from draining away quickly"


Commoragh became much more interesting to me in the last 30 min. But at the same time the notion that Commoragh is filled entirely with militant DE is very misleading. In fact only a small portion of it even ventures in to realspace.

To put it it another way, if Orks were removed how would the setting change? Armageddon wouldn't happen, so what, just a hive world, if the DE destroying some doesn't matter then the same applies to Orks. They had no major impact on the development of any of the other major factions, they are just there, they just fight. Remove them and nothing changes.

mmmm, now THAT's grasping. Orks are a waaaay more common and major player than DE. Unquestionably a much more core element of the setting.

[eldargal]

1) Irrelevent, we are talking about faction power, slaves and mercenaries factor into that.
2) True, but even small Craftworlds are the size of moons and were intended to house an entire planetary population according to some of the more recent fluff (IA11 perhaps)
3) Not so, Wych Cults and Covens also raid realspace and many kabals use gangs and other on-kabal elements
4) Irrelevent, the elite are trueborn and have access to cloning, the majority of the population are bred artificially, it is in no way indicative of a low population
5) Yes, so is almost everyone else.
6) Unclear whether this is referring to the entire population, or individual kabals. It is also contradicted by the codex and other background material which talks about constant flows of raiding parties and ships into and out of Commorragh.

Ah but stonerhino insists that a faction has to do more than inflict significant damage, they have to have a goal beyond simply fighting for fun like Dark Eldar and Orks do not. Wtih Dark Eldar and Orks you have two races shown to be able to inflict significant levels of damage on the major stake holder in the 40k galaxy, the Imperium. They both fight basically for the fun of it, the only difference is one has a higher population than the other. I'm not actually arguing Oks aren't a major power, that would be as ridiculous as arguing Dark Eldar aren't. I'm merely saying that if you accept stonerhinos criteria then you are only left with the Imperium and maybe the tyranids as galactic powers. I would rgue, though, that the only reason Orks are more of a core element (which they are) is because they have been in the game since Rogue Trader. In ten years time when Dark Eldar have had much more written about them our perspective on them will have changed, too.

I'm also not arguing that Dark Eldar are one of THE major galactic powers. They are in the G20 rather than the G8, if you will. But they are still there.